360 Tuna Fishers Forum banner
21 - 40 of 52 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Hi a1flyfishr. What further differences you noticed between SJ3 S and SJ3 SE (besides the length and guide type)? I have a gut feeling that the SE is inferior to the S and the cost is exagerated - significantly less value for money, and also the fact that they offering 40% back for a future purchase of a new rod by trading in an SE rod bought directly from them makes it more fishy. The blank itself under load tests seems weaker despite that it is shorter and thicker (should have been stronger). In a video, A K told that new the rod is 'more powerful' but how can it be when numbers show it is weaker compared to the SJ3 S (comparison of 60 degrees and 90 degrees maximum loads for S and SE). It is like they cut manufacturing cost but selling near the same price as their previous models. How about the feel and action? So far, I do not feel that the rod is worth so much; it is more like an imposter - a lesser quality rod relying on the reputation of its predecesor which was a high-end rod for sales. Also note that other of their items released before the pandemic are running out of stock too or close, as if they are not manufacturing more of those despite that there is demand as if there is a problem at the factory. I am looking forward to your findings.
Regards
 

·
Retired Member
Joined
·
5,518 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
To my understanding the SE was made exclusively for Tokayo tackle. I don’t think any other shop will carry the SE. The power 1 handled the grouper and that AJ just fine. Not sure if it’s inferior to the S model. Just a different feel with it being shorter.

Benny
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
To my understanding the SE was made exclusively for Tokayo tackle. I don’t think any other shop will carry the SE. The power 1 handled the grouper and that AJ just fine. Not sure if it’s inferior to the S model. Just a different feel with it being shorter.

Benny
How about the action of the rod on the jig? I noticed in one recently posted video that the rod hardly bends or curves while pitching.


Please note that I am asking for all this as myself I was in the market recently for a SJ3 S x Power 3 Conventional but it was too late; all stocks from online stores that would ship to my country were gone and I could not get one. The SJ3 SE X debuted and was some something I was considering but I still have doubts in its performance as compared to the SJ3 S X. Its advertising does not seem convincing and in fact have contradictions like 'more powerful' and so on but logic and comparison numbers 'say' different and also there are differences between the numbers posted for the same item by Tokayo.
 

·
Retired Member
Joined
·
5,518 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 ·
How about the action of the rod on the jig? I noticed in one recently posted video that the rod hardly bends or curves while pitching.


Please note that I am asking for all this as myself I was in the market recently for a SJ3 S x Power 3 Conventional but it was too late; all stocks from online stores that would ship to my country were gone and I could not get one. The SJ3 SE X debuted and was some something I was considering but I still have doubts in its performance as compared to the SJ3 S X. Its advertising does not seem convincing and in fact have contradictions like 'more powerful' and so on but logic and comparison numbers 'say' different and also there are differences between the numbers posted for the same item by Tokayo.
The SE is shorter so you don’t get the long lift to give the jig a long fall. Not sure if it being shorter makes it feel stiffer. But to me that’s the feeling I get. In my opinion it seems to be just as powerful as the S. What I heard about the drag pressure being lowered was for the reason that they were made exclusively for Tokayp with Tokayo specs and don’t have HR backing up the rod. So the lowered the pressure just for their own purpose. I still put will put the same pressure on the SE as I do on the S. I was going to purchase the SE 2 power but I decided against it. I use the SE 0 with jigs I use for the S 1 and the SE 1 with jigs I use with the S 2. In my area I never go over 400g and that’s very rare. Having 3 series from power 0 to power 3. I like the S series best it just feels best and is a nice length.

Benny
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
The SE is shorter so you don’t get the long lift to give the jig a long fall. Not sure if it being shorter makes it feel stiffer. But to me that’s the feeling I get. In my opinion it seems to be just as powerful as the S. What I heard about the drag pressure being lowered was for the reason that they were made exclusively for Tokayp with Tokayo specs and don’t have HR backing up the rod. So the lowered the pressure just for their own purpose. I still put will put the same pressure on the SE as I do on the S. I was going to purchase the SE 2 power but I decided against it. I use the SE 0 with jigs I use for the S 1 and the SE 1 with jigs I use with the S 2. In my area I never go over 400g and that’s very rare. Having 3 series from power 0 to power 3. I like the S series best it just feels best and is a nice length.

Benny
Thanks.

My thinking is that if the rod does not bend enough followed by the release (elastic effect), then that would negatively affect one type of slow jigging technique - the one where we create a curve either by pulling or by reeling, the curve straightens, and in doing so, pitches the jig up.

The reduced length will affect long fall but not by so much because the rod is only about 10-20cm less in length. In fact, if the rod curves less, it will produced less movement for the long fall too because there will be less elastic energy transfered to the jig.

Assuming same material and construction, a reduction in length and increased in thickness from tip to bottom is expected to decrease the curvature. There is a possibility that the material is different because of 'new material, more light, more power', but then the material and/or construction might be stiffer too.

About the max drag, as said, there are differences (contradictions) for the same item. On Tokayo website, the SJ3 SE X P3 is said to have a maximum of 27 kg but on their facebook page, many posts say 28 kg. About the rod having a lesser max drag because is for Tokayo only, I do not think so, because, to my knowledge, Tokayo focuses on maximum strength, that is the bigger the max drag, the better; they (at least A Ka, from what he told me) focus on catching the biggest fish.

Yes, I have the impression that the S is better, and is strange why discontinue something that had so much success and still have demand. I still think there is a problem at the factory or something fishy going on.
 

·
Retired Member
Joined
·
5,518 Posts
Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Thanks.

My thinking is that if the rod does not bend enough followed by the release (elastic effect), then that would negatively affect one type of slow jigging technique - the one where we create a curve either by pulling or by reeling, the curve straightens, and in doing so, pitches the jig up.

The reduced length will affect long fall but not by so much given the rod given is only about 10-20cm less in length. In fact, given that if the rod curves less, it will produced less movement for the long fall too because there will be lest elastic energy transfered to the jig.

Assuming same material and construction, a reduction in length and increased in thickness from tip to bottom is expected to decrease the curvature. There is a possibility that the material is different because of 'new material, more light, more power', but then the material and/or construction might be stiffer too.

About the max drag, as said, there are differences (contradictions) for the same item. On Tokayo website, the SJ3 SE X P3 is said to have a maximum of 27 kg but on their facebook page, many posts say 28 kg. About the rod having a lesser max drag because is for Tokayo only, I do not think so, because, to my knowledge, Tokayo focuses on maximum strength, that is the bigger the max drag, the better; they (at least A Ka, from what he told me) focus on catching the biggest fish.

Yes, I have the impression that the S is better, and is strange why discontinue something that had so much success and still have demand. I still think there is a problem at the factory or something fishy going on.
You may be 100% correct. It is odd to stop production on something with through the roof sales, and sold out with every restock.

Benny
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
93 Posts
Have you guys considered maybe they were just using somebody else blanks and putting their name on them.......then using the great youtube videos to sell a ton.
Maybe who was sourcing them wanted more money or didn't want to keep sourcing someone who was selling better than their "normally branded as" product these blanks were originally built for.
In the 70's there were about umpteen different brands of the popular CB radios that were the craze. If you opened them up to repair, you soon figured out only few different variants of the electronic circuit boards existed and were made in a handful of factories. Every different company, just put different knobs and buttons and labels and lights on the front, to make their brand better.:)
 

·
Retired Member
Joined
·
5,518 Posts
Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Have you guys considered maybe they were just using somebody else blanks and putting their name on them.......then using the great youtube videos to sell a ton.
Maybe who was sourcing them wanted more money or didn't want to keep sourcing someone who was selling better than their "normally branded as" product these blanks were originally built for.
In the 70's there were about umpteen different brands of the popular CB radios that were the craze. If you opened them up to repair, you soon figured out only few different variants of the electronic circuit boards existed and were made in a handful of factories. Every different company, just put different knobs and buttons and labels and lights on the front, to make their brand better.:)
I’m sure any thing is possible, and I wouldn’t be surprised. Wish I knew what other company blank they were using, I’d save a some bucks.

Benny
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Tokayo sells certain Hearty Rise products and put their name on them such the jigs and rods. Those same products, for example the jigs, do not seem to bear the Tokayo name if bought from certain other shops. From what I read, ETUOH is the factory that manufactured the rods for Hearty Rise. I think that the SJIII, SJIII R x and SJIII S x are genuine products from Hearty Rise. Since like half a year, it seems that the furthur manufacturing of many of their products have been stopped. There is a local shop here in my country, the one where I first got to know about this brand, that made an order of Hearty Rise products that was supposed to be received this year but they have not received it so far and thus remains pending. Customers, including myself, have been kept waiting for months.

The one that I have doubts is the new rod - the SJIII SE x. Take into consideration that I might be mistaken too but I have good reasons to be in doubt. There are contradictions in the information about the rod as mentioned in my previous posts. Furthermore, what I have seen on the SJIII SE x videos so far are not convincing. The rod did not appear to bend enough when jigging. The videos themselves are strange because usually Tokayo goes for big fish, pushing the rods to near their advertised performance and limits (as did with the R x and S x rods) but for the SE x they using Power 0 and 1 versions and catching significantly smaller fish for their advertising. No video show the rod being 'pushed'. Also, notice how the videos are poorly done - like amateur fishing videos. Grosso modo, it is as if some things are fishy (odd) as compared to what we used to with the SJIII R and S and also the other products involved such as the jigs, hooks, lines and so on. I have noticed some of their catches have been done by using the Sitenkiba III jig but they advertising Slow Deep III - more contradictions. I have doubts even on the value; it does not seem to be a rod worth around the USD 500; it is like the rod is significantly overpriced and we getting less value for money - a rod that does not seem to be on par or an improvement on its predecessor but more like an inferior product. There have been concerns about the lengths and materials (Alconite vs Titanium-Torzite guides). There also a big question: why Hearty Rise stop manufacturing the SJIII S x and some other of their products despite there is still demand but they apparently manufactured a new rod called the SJIII SE x and only for one shop? Aren't they not losing in doing so? What could be the problem? The rod is also not displayed on their Hearty Rise website despite that it bears their name. Where did that so called new rod was manufactured? All this is very strange.

If more people buy the new rod, SJIII SE x, it will be nice to have their views and feedback after they thoroughly test it.
 

·
Retired Member
Joined
·
5,518 Posts
Discussion Starter · #31 ·
From what I got from A Ka the kid in the video. He says that the SJ3S was replaced with the Diamond series from HR. Tokayo asked HR to make the SE exclusively for Tokayo, to Tokayo specs. As far as the HR jigs with the Tokyo logo is just a advertising way to push Tokayo products. I bought HR jigs from US shops and they’re the same jig just no name.

Benny
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
From what I got from A Ka the kid in the video. He says that the SJ3S was replaced with the Diamond series from HR. Tokayo asked HR to make the SE exclusively for Tokayo, to Tokayo specs. As far as the HR jigs with the Tokyo logo is just a advertising way to push Tokayo products. I bought HR jigs from US shops and they’re the same jig just no name.

Benny

Benny,

Do these rods work lighter jigs? For example, the power 2 SJ3S states the jig rating as Max 500. Will it properly work a 200 gm jig, or even a 100; or is it too stiff to work the lighter jigs well?

thanks,

Aasim
 

·
Retired Member
Joined
·
5,518 Posts
Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Benny,

Do these rods work lighter jigs? For example, the power 2 SJ3S states the jig rating as Max 500. Will it properly work a 200 gm jig, or even a 100; or is it too stiff to work the lighter jigs well?

thanks,

Aasim
Sorry I don’t know how low you can go with the “S” P2. I have a P1 and P2 in the SJR3S and used them as suggested. I used as low as 200g and up to 290g on the P1 with great results. If I needed to go lighter I would most likely set up my SJ3R P0.

Benny
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Sorry I don’t know how low you can go with the “S” P2. I have a P1 and P2 in the SJR3S and used them as suggested. I used as low as 200g and up to 290g on the P1 with great results. If I needed to go lighter I would most likely set up my SJ3R P0.

Benny
Did the "R" P1 work the 200g jig well? I'm trying to understand the "Max jig weight" concept vs using a range which many rods provide. If P0 is max 250g, and P1 is max 340g, does that mean P1 is intended to work jigs between 250g and 340g? Maybe I'm thinking too much about this.
 

·
Retired Member
Joined
·
5,518 Posts
Discussion Starter · #35 ·
I didn’t use a 200g jig on the “R” P1 but I’m sure if the “S” P1 worked a 200g the “R” being the same blank should work a 200g, just as well and being rated to 250g. If I remember the P”0” will work down to a 60g. But don’t quote me on that my memory isn’t like it was. But remember it worked for me doesn’t mean it will work the same under different conditions, depth, current etc….
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
From what I got from A Ka the kid in the video. He says that the SJ3S was replaced with the Diamond series from HR.
Benny
But is the Black Diamond series a replacement for the SJ3 S? Black Diamond II stops at 350g lure max rating while the SJ III, SJ III R and SJ III S have max lure ratings of 1000g, 800g and 800g respectively. It does not make sense as such for it to be called a 'replacement' as it does not cover the same lure ranges and not even close. There is also the possibility of HR discontinuing products for heavy jigging lures, which makes more sense why they stopped manufacturing certain rods and lures. There is no official announcement or news from Hearty Rise about discontinuation and/or replacement though concerning the rods and jigs concerned, which is kind of improfessional and innappropriate from them; it is as if they let part of their customers in the dark for months.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Did the "R" P1 work the 200g jig well? I'm trying to understand the "Max jig weight" concept vs using a range which many rods provide. If P0 is max 250g, and P1 is max 340g, does that mean P1 is intended to work jigs between 250g and 340g? Maybe I'm thinking too much about this.
I think the maximum weight is the weight that can be pulled by the rod, curving the top part of the rod, followed by full recovery or recoiling at a certain speed, that is the rod straightens back to its original shape after the pull with the weight still on the line. A bigger weight will prevent 'full' recoil, that is the a significant curve will remain as long as the weight is hanging on it, or the elastic recovery will be way too slow. The curving and 'recoiling' is what pitches the jig in slow jigging. Less recoil or very slow recoil means less pitching (weight too heavy). Less curving gives less pitching too and somewhat inproper pitching as there will be less of an elastic pull (weight too light). Hence, why there is usually a minimum and maximum weight rating - a range. Best is to give the range and the sweet spot, but some people give the maximum rating only due to how they see things. In jigging, the maximum rating information is more important; someone can still jig a light lure with a heavy rod by adjusting movements with the hand and arm but it is hard to jig a heavy lure on a light rod. The heavy lure will barely move or will move very slowly.

I think it should be ok to jig a 200g lure on a 340g max rated slow jigging rod. Take into consideration that there is a sweet spot (it offers the best action) for the lure weights, and this will be lower than the max rating. As an indication, the estimated sweet spot for the 340g rod is about 230g. The estimated sweet spot for the 800g rod is about 600g. Notice that in some cases, the sweet spot of a higher max rating rod is below that of the maximum rating of the rod just below it in terms of power; 230g is lower than 250g (max rating of Power 0).
 

·
Retired Member
Joined
·
5,518 Posts
Discussion Starter · #39 ·
I think the maximum weight is the weight that can be pulled by the rod, curving the top part of the rod, followed by full recovery or recoiling at a certain speed, that is the rod straightens back to its original shape after the pull with the weight still on the line. A bigger weight will prevent 'full' recoil, that is the a significant curve will remain as long as the weight is hanging on it, or the elastic recovery will be way too slow. The curving and 'recoiling' is what pitches the jig in slow jigging. Less recoil or very slow recoil means less pitching (weight too heavy). Less curving gives less pitching too and somewhat inproper pitching as there will be less of an elastic pull (weight too light). Hence, why there is usually a minimum and maximum weight rating - a range. Best is to give the range and the sweet spot, but some people give the maximum rating only due to how they see things. In jigging, the maximum rating information is more important; someone can still jig a light lure with a heavy rod by adjusting movements with the hand and arm but it is hard to jig a heavy lure on a light rod. The heavy lure will barely move or will move very slowly.

I think it should be ok to jig a 200g lure on a 340g max rated slow jigging rod. Take into consideration that there is a sweet spot (it offers the best action) for the lure weights, and this will be lower than the max rating. As an indication, the estimated sweet spot for the 340g rod is about 230g. The estimated sweet spot for the 800g rod is about 600g. Notice that the sweet spot of a higher max rating rod is below that of the maximum rating of the rod just below it in terms of power; 230g is lower than 250g (max rating of Power 0) and 600g is lower than 650g (max rating of power 2).
Yes that May be all true but the question is how light can you go with the max being 340g. We know that if the jig is a wider body and the current is strong it will give more resistance to a lighter jig. But in perfect confirmations will the P2 work a jig under 100g?

Benny
 

·
Retired Member
Joined
·
5,518 Posts
Discussion Starter · #40 ·
But is the Black Diamond series a replacement for the SJ3 S? Black Diamond II stops at 340g lure max rating while the SJ III, SJ III R and SJ III S have max lure ratings of 1000g, 800g and 800g respectively. It does not make sense as such for it to be called a 'replacement' as it does not cover the same lure ranges and not even close. There is also the possibility of HR discontinuing products for heavy jigging lures, which makes more sense why they stopped manufacturing certain rods and lures. There is no official announcement or news from Hearty Rise about discontinuation and/or replacement though concerning the rods and jigs concerned, which is kind of improfessional and innappropriate from them; it is as if they let part of their customers in the dark for months.
From what A Ka told me the Diamond is to replace the discontinued sjr3s. Anything other than that I don’t know about the Diamond.

Benny
 
21 - 40 of 52 Posts
Top