what knot would you use... braid to braid?

Discussion in 'Tackle and Rigging' started by fuelish1, Aug 23, 2009.

  1. fuelish1

    fuelish1 Senior Member

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    Braid to braid knot, equal size and brand of braid (PP) If I'm gonna do it, I wanna do it RIGHT
     
  2. kidflex

    kidflex Senior Member

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    i use a 5 turn surgeons on both ends and loop to loop em
     

  3. gman

    gman Senior Member

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    uni to uni works perfect for this application
     
  4. bigscrnman

    bigscrnman Senior Member

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    uni to uni works perfect for this application

    X2 for the double uni!
     
  5. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Either the 5-turn Surgeon's Loop with Loop-to-Loop connections or the Uni to Uni will work.

    Either approach will reduce the strength of your line by roughly 30% (maybe 40%). Which means a 50# line will become a 35# line, a 65# line will become a 45# line and an 80# line will end up the equivalent of a 55# line. (If you put a drop of Loctite 406, or any cyanoacrylate that can fully penetrate the knot, onto each knot, you may get 90% or better performance, if you do everything perfectly. The problem is it is hard to tell for sure if the glue has penetrated.)

    If you want to retain 95% or more of the line's strength, but a Bimini Twist at the end of each line and Loop-to-Loop the lines together.

    If you want a 99% connection, splice the PP into a section of hollow-weave line.
     
  6. SpecialK

    SpecialK Super Moderator

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    Pametfisher, how much would the line decrease in strength, if any, if you tie a uni to uni with doubled line?
    It seems if you lost 40% with a uni to uni , then doubling the lines would make it more around 120%?
    Or is it the line cutting itself that creates the loss of strenth?
     
  7. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Pametfisher, how much would the line decrease in strength, if any, if you tie a uni to uni with doubled line?
    It seems if you lost 40% with a uni to uni , then doubling the lines would make it more around 120%?
    Or is it the line cutting itself that creates the loss of strenth?

    This is a very good question. First some Unis and some Surgeon's are as good as 30% weaker, not that it is much better.

    Before answering your question directly, let me give some background.

    The exact way that most knots fail (assuming that enough turns are used so that it doesn't slip) is they fracture. Almost always, the fracture is caused by something called "stress concentration" at the first tight turn in the knot. At that tight turn, more of the load is carried by the outside fibers/material. In effect, the line becomes smaller since the material at the inside of the tight turn is not carrying much load. This explanation probably sounds a little far-fetched since the geometries are so small but it is what happens in large lines and small ones. (The reason splicing is so strong is that there are no tight turns in the splice.) (What glue does is to spread the load throughout the knot by making it a solid mass, by filing in the pores. But you have to be certain that the glue has penetrated entirely, which can be hard to know.)

    So, to your question. Doubling the line can, in certain circumstances, increase the radius of the tight turn somewhat, strengthening the knot a bit (10-15%?). The problem in theory, and experience, is that it doesn't always increase the radius depending on the precise way the materials stack in the knot.

    If you tie a Bimini Twist in the line, and then knot it ... or Loop-to-Loop it, each leg of the Bimini only carries 50% of the load. Therefore a knot tied in the loop end is nearly 100% strong if you can make it well enough so that both legs carry their halves. I favor a single loop-to-loop because it is the easiest to equalize and is 100% strong.

    One last thought, here is a way to tie knots in braid that are 100%:

    http://www.360tuna.com/forum/f3/hollow-spectra-part-i-100-strong-glueless-knots-5103/

    but you must have hollow braid to use this technique.
     
  8. SpecialK

    SpecialK Super Moderator

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    This is a very good question. First some Unis and some Surgeon's are as good as 30% weaker, not that it is much better.

    Before answering your question directly, let me give some background.

    The exact way that most knots fail (assuming that enough turns are used so that it doesn't slip) is they fracture. Almost always, the fracture is caused by something called "stress concentration" at the first tight turn in the knot. At that tight turn, more of the load is carried by the outside fibers/material. In effect, the line becomes smaller since the material at the inside of the tight turn is not carrying much load. This explanation probably sounds a little far-fetched since the geometries are so small but it is what happens in large lines and small ones. (The reason splicing is so strong is that there are no tight turns in the splice.) (What glue does is to spread the load throughout the knot by making it a solid mass, by filing in the pores. But you have to be certain that the glue has penetrated entirely, which can be hard to know.)

    So, to your question. Doubling the line can, in certain circumstances, increase the radius of the tight turn somewhat, strengthening the knot a bit (10-15%?). The problem in theory, and experience, is that it doesn't always increase the radius depending on the precise way the materials stack in the knot.

    If you tie a Bimini Twist in the line, and then knot it ... or Loop-to-Loop it, each leg of the Bimini only carries 50% of the load. Therefore a knot tied in the loop end is nearly 100% strong if you can make it well enough so that both legs carry their halves. I favor a single loop-to-loop because it is the easiest to equalize and is 100% strong.

    One last thought, here is a way to tie knots in braid that are 100%:

    http://www.360tuna.com/forum/f3/hollow-spectra-part-i-100-strong-glueless-knots-5103/

    but you must have hollow braid to use this technique.
    Thanks for the reply.

    I have used the uni to uni for years without a single braid to braid failure that I can remember. With mono to braid I have more failure but usually at the mono.
    I always try not to run drag higher than 30% of line rating. In a lot of cases this is all the drag that I would want.
    I don't get as involved in all of the technical data as you do(thats why we ask you) but I always try to pull 50% of the line rating to check uni to uni, P.R. and other line to line knots. If I get a slip or break, I retie. On trolling and deep drop applications, I use hollow braid and 9/10 of the time, I loop to loop without knots.
     
  9. fuelish1

    fuelish1 Senior Member

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    if I was using 40# pp, with a braid to braid knot...(making for 600y of it) what are the chances my reel would hold more than 20# plus of drag anyways? (penn 9500 spinfisher)

    i could always glue that connection too....
     
  10. SpecialK

    SpecialK Super Moderator

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    if I was using 40# pp, with a braid to braid knot...(making for 600y of it) what are the chances my reel would hold more than 20# plus of drag anyways? (penn 9500 spinfisher)

    i could always glue that connection too....

    With after market drag and the knob locked down... maybe.

    I wouldn't do it though as I have seen more than one of these reels break because of this.
     
  11. guillotm

    guillotm Member

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    I made up a knot that retains more than 70% percent of the braid line strength. It is more compact than the slim beauty, easy to tie, and the mono doesnt hit the guides on the way out. I totally agree about the hollow braid being the best but sometimes I have to tie a knot and when I do its this one.
     
  12. John_Madison CT

    John_Madison CT Senior Member

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    ...........and that would be???
     
  13. rtran

    rtran Senior Member

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