What’s the top hollow to mono topshot technique?

Discussion in 'Tackle and Rigging' started by ReelMe, Nov 29, 2020.

  1. explorer

    explorer Member

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    Thank you, been always wanted to buy or build a Jig-Station to do serving and you just saved me some $$$. Tried it and it’s easy enough. Don’t have a machine to pull test it but transition look/feels ok to me:) image.jpg
     
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  2. ReelMe

    ReelMe Super Member

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    Looks good, what lines did you use?
     
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  3. explorer

    explorer Member

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    ToroTamer 12 strand 60lbs with 40lbs Big Game mono. The end of the serve, after the finishing knot....it will move if I push it towards the “Mono Side”. I will try again tightening the bobbin.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
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  4. explorer

    explorer Member

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    I think if/when the mono stretches under load, that finishing knot and the last 10 wraps will move but the 4 foot insertion should hold and not affected. I was doing 3 nails knots but this finishing looks a lot cleaner, just need a Bobbin with us when fishing.
    just saying
     
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  5. Kim

    Kim Senior Member

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    It's best to make a series of leaders of the various rated leaders you will use on your trips ahead of time. When you're out fishing it's quick and easy to just change out your LL connected leaders because they are already made ready to go. Some people use the cats paw LL connection and others the single loop because it's easier to change leaders but it will chafe so you need to check it after every fish.

    To give yourself a better understanding of how much stretch monofilament/fluorocarbon leaders have test iit you yourself with 20 foot sections of the leader materials you will use. Serving them under tension pretty much guarantees that the leader won't slip until it is stretched thinner than what it was served at.
     
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  6. Dobhar-Chu

    Dobhar-Chu Active Member

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    A lot of good stuff here folks. This DaHoProducts.com is an excellent reference to use. I buy their needles and looks too

    click through the multiple links, quite detailed

    DaHo Tech Tips (dahoproducts.com)


    If you wish to explore the crimp method as well as a line serve, here is a garry sato video... kits are available all over, an over priced link is pasted here too...



    Sato Pro Crimping Kits (mahitackle.com)

    D-C
     
  7. Cubeye

    Cubeye Junior member

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    Looks like the same author has two versions of his Top Shot Splicing.
    https://www.fishing.net.nz/fishing-advice/how-to/how-to-splice-a-mono-topshot-to-hollow-braid/
    This method if basically making a PR knot with the tag end of the Spectra, while the tag end of the mono is inserted into the hollow. Interesting concept. He has a PR Knot firmly gripping the mono, AND a serve gripping the hollow onto the mono.

    Without fully understanding the dynamics as to how the two methods interact, I would have to say...........I like it.
     
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  8. bigreddog

    bigreddog Member

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    A Clarion supercow and many cows have been caught on inserted connections as short as 2". Myself, Utahtuna, and a few others worked on these types of short inserted connections going back around 15 years. All of our work started with the help of Basil, either directly or indirectly. To make short insertion leaders they need to be made with the mono or fluoro tensioned with substantial weight using a dynamic load. I use 50% of the rated breaking strength of mono, a little less than that with most fluoro. This amount of weight is not arbitrary: much more than this for any length of time will result in a permanent diameter reduction of the nylon, indicating line damage, and negating the advantages of temporary diameter reduction. The entire point of constructing leaders this way is to reduce the diameter of the nylon to a smaller diameter than will ever occur during fishing, and then serving it in a manner that will hold that diameter reduction indefinitely.

    In the photo below on the left side is my jig to hold the plastic line without damaging it. On the right at the edge of the table (painted black) is a pully that the white and blue rope runs thru. at the far end of the rope is a bucket that is suspended and loaded with weights as needed. I use a dynamic load that moves as the mono/fluoro stretches.

    1. Clamp the mono/fluoro in the jig on the left.
    2. Slide the spectra loop over the mono/fluoro
    3. Tie the right side of the mono/fluoro to the ring on the rope,
    4. Suspend the bucket.
    5. Serve. The preparation of the mono/fluoro, and the way it is served are critical. There are several ways to screw this part up. Trial and error along with a ton of load cycle testing is the only way to get it right.
    set up pictures for Lew 001.JPG

    I don’t pay much attention to spectra to mono/fluoro size differences. If constructed well there will be no movement, the serve holds 100 percent of the load.

    NOTE: Utahtuna does pay attention to braid/nylon sizes. He is smarter than I am, far more patient, and during the years that we were working on this he had a lot more time than I did. If you are building these leaders I would pay close attention to what he has done and written.

    Even if you build a non slip leader, other bad things can happen such as failures where the mono/fluoro ends inside the spectra sleeve. I had 2 failures during testing with fluoro that broke at the serve from being damaged during the serving. Early in the development of these I had a failure while fishing that was caused by too much of the wrong glue that created a hinge point in the area of the serve.

    I have seen inserted connections of all types fail on big fish during long range trips out of San Diego. Crimps, nail knots, nubs, served connections, glue only connections, and long insertions. There are lots of ways to make inserted connections well, and even more ways to make them poorly. Whichever way you choose to make them, the only way you will know if you have a dependable system is to load cycle test them. Inserted leaders don’t fail suddenly, but incrementally. I test my leaders by applying heavy loads repeatedly, 100 times or more while looking for slippage or other degradation. It is useless to pull one time or a few times during testing.

    I build these leaders from 60 to 200 pound test. Lighter lines are much harder for me to do well using this process.

    One final note: if you build leaders in this manner be careful. Your face and hands will be in close proximity to elastic line under a substantial load. Don't underestimate the danger!
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2020
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  9. Kim

    Kim Senior Member

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    IMHO serving your leaders is a better method because the diameters of leader material are not standardized as far as serving goes diameter doesn't matter. Sato crimps are for specific diameter leader material, if you over crimp the Sato crimps you have just created the weak spot in your leader. An ideal crimp does not have the little wings sticking out the sides when you are done, a proper crimp is a uniform compression around the crimp.
     
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  10. explorer

    explorer Member

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    so
    1) Insert, 2 nail knots and glue

    Naked eyes, nail knot is slimmer but the crusty feeling of the glue kind of make that 1 cm stiff. Bet you can feel/hear when it go through the guides.

    2) I served 20++ more wraps after the insertion point, finishing knot

    Like I mentioned, the last 10 wraps will shift towards the mono side if you push it(I already adjust the bobbin to the tightest possible). Not sure how would that affect when fishing.

    3) I served and stopped at the insertion point and finished knot on the mono.
    The last few wrap don’t move “much” when pushed

    so what’s your finding/testing so far Reel
    Me?
    22CC67EE-8480-49E3-A6CC-B8FB539657C6.jpeg
     
  11. ReelMe

    ReelMe Super Member

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    I haven’t tried anything yet, just gathering materials and research. I have the winter to make topshots. Hell, I just went out and took in gear from the boat that I had forgotten was out there lol. Snowed all day yesterday here. I’m way behind in putting things away for the winter. Still have a lot to do lol
     
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  12. redgarvey

    redgarvey Member

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    now you need to test your topshots
    anchor to Point A and put a bucket of weight and simulate the stress that topshot would experience

    Don't know about y'all but when I finish winding a PR-knot and lock that first half-hitch

    I'm wearing pair of leather gloves to 'cinch down' that braid to bite that leader material

    I would not worry about the crusty feeling of glue and guides...
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2020
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  13. Kim

    Kim Senior Member

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    Back during my trial and error phase with making wind on leaders, I found it was best to end the serving just before it got to the leader material because the serving would slip right at the point where the serving went onto the leader material under heavy loads. The reason for this is that the braid has a lot less stretch than the leader material and the leader material locked down by the braid doesn't stretch as much as the material outside the braid.

    Another thing to keep in mind is your serving, when using #10 to #20 braid for serving it will stretch a little while serving the connection. I use white #20 braid and I can see a color change when served, from white to a little translucent. This tells me that I have a nice tight serving. With that on top of serving the connection while under tension makes a connection that will not slip under heavy cyclic loads. Serving with heavy # braid won't give that extra compression with the serving, I never use anything more than #20 for serving.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2020
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  14. explorer

    explorer Member

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    Wrap towards the mono and then back to the insertion point, wraps don’t move at all. 335E825B-057D-4627-BDDB-4B06CAAAE526.jpeg
     
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  15. ReelMe

    ReelMe Super Member

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    I just bought a spool of 400lb mono for making windons for shark fishing. I need to get a 400lb mono needle and I guess I should use 500lb JBHC??
     
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  16. Dobhar-Chu

    Dobhar-Chu Active Member

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    First I would pull the 400 lb mono tight to straighten it, then I would sand the 400 mono real smooth and rounded on the end, then make a wire spreader out of a 3 foot piece of 40 lb single strand wire folded in half with a tight folded tip would work great. Then comes the spreading of the hollowcore with a wire spreader, Slide the wire spreader inside the hollowcore and spread the weave out as you move the hollowcore down the wire. after about 5 or 6 feet of expanded hollowcore gently push the hollowcore off the wire, Do not tug on the end of the hollowcore as this will close the expanded weave.... push it off from the end of the bent wire.... now carefully slide the expanded hollowcore over the 400 lb mono and you will be able to snake it without a needle. The needles are easier... DaHo is where you can get the needles for all line weights. I still will use the wire spreader regardless of using a needle or not... buff the mono smooth and round and you can do it....

    D-C
     
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  17. redgarvey

    redgarvey Member

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    400# mono into 200# JBHC is more than adequate

    Following 'D-C' sage advise the same 3' folded piece of 40# wire can be used for making end loops
     
  18. Cubeye

    Cubeye Junior member

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    Ask Basil at BHP Tackle about the Hollow Spectra. I tried Izor 200# Hollow for my 300# Momoi Hard Mono, and had a hard time making a double wall wind on.

    He recommended 200# Cortland and it was perfect.

    Single wall requirements are different.

    He has the knowledge and the supplies you will need.
     
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  19. Kim

    Kim Senior Member

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    The Moi Moi hard leader has a greater diameter than the same # soft Moi Moi leader. Aside from that I've made a lot of #300 and #400 wind on leaders and I've never had to use needles. Like Dobhar, I use an emery board to round and smooth the leader insertion end. I hold the HC at theinner/outer junction where the outer leg is scrunched up to the loop, then pinch the inner leg between finger and thumb nail and stretch it ti the bitter end which opens the weave. then i just insert the rounded end and ease it through just like I would a needle.
     
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  20. Cubeye

    Cubeye Junior member

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    What brand of hollow are you using to make your heavy double wall wind ons? I.e. 200-400# mono.