Usage of belts and harnesses and their effect on rods.

Discussion in 'Saltywater Tackle' started by Saltywater tackle, May 19, 2012.

  1. obeckmann

    obeckmann Senior Member

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    I hope this comment is appropriate as I bow to the expertise of the opinions above - since I only have a few years of tuna fishing under my belt, an only a handful of jigging trips....

    Would there be an advantage to a short bent butt application to a lightweight jigging rod for those who would prefer to use a bucket harness? Or would that defeat the purpose?
     
  2. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

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    Ohhh...........remember this too:-
    Branded built rod ratings are the rating of the rod as determined by the factory.
    Blank ratings used in Custom & DIY builds are rated as a bare blank..........what you put on them ( guides & line ) doesn't make the blank stronger ..........it reduces the strength of the blank.............keep that in mind with custom & DIY builds when reading blank specs.

    FWIW
     

  3. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

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    775
    I hope this comment is appropriate as I bow to the expertise of the opinions above - since I only have a few years of tuna fishing under my belt, an only a handful of jigging trips....

    Would there be an advantage to a short bent butt application to a lightweight jigging rod for those who would prefer to use a bucket harness? Or would that defeat the purpose?

    Fighting the fish ............yes
    Jigging ...........No.
    ........It changes the whole arc the rod travels in & the jigging motion..............particularly so for those of us who prefer to jig with rod under armpit.
    with a bent butt jigging rod you have to change the human jigging motion to a higher angle with your arms, this is not efficient & very quickly tiring.
    ( you are jigging with more bend in your arms & more shoulder rotation).
    ( a bent butt popping rod changes the casting rotation..............been there -done that with casting rods)

    Now.........a magic popping or jigging rod that changed from straight butt to bent butt with the press of a button after hookup...........That would be something else..............:D
     
  4. Bunny

    Bunny Senior Member

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    Bunny
    The higher stick rating I think you are talking about ,would be a 60 Deg rating rather than 30
    30 is a 30 deg rod elevation above horizontal ( relative to a vertical line load ).............He He.
    Some manufacturers do provide both a 45 & a (lowstick) 30 drag rating.

    As anglers we need to apply a 45 drag rating as 45 Deg between rod butt & our line from water/fish to tip .............irrespective of where the rod is pointed.
    the 30 rating is applied as 60 deg between rod butt & line.

    The hard part for some , in the heat of battle, is remembering that the closer the line gets to the boat ..........the lower the top of the rod pump stroke needs to be.
    ie , where the rod can point ( within the power rating of the blank used) depends on where the fish is.

    ..The message there was that max load rating at 45 Deg needed to be reduced by 25%.

    ..........

    I thought the drag ratings at the different degrees were based on the angle of the rod butt to the line like you touched on in the third paragraph and not from just the horizontal plane in a deadlift? I haven't seen a rod in the flesh with more than one max drag rating at two angles. If it's what you say then yes I was talking about 60 degrees above the horizontal for a vertical lift, essentially a high stick rating. Having said that I missed Nev's thread and testing so really the 25% rule takes care of that anyway.
    Learning all the time!
     
  5. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

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    Thats Kool
    Its what we do on 360T...........share & help others avoid mistakes or misunderstandings, where we can.
    the drag rating is definitely rod elevation with a vertical load ...........not angle line to rod.
    ( its the way they set the tests up...........vertical load & elevate the rod above horizontal to the deg setting on the test rig)
    ( the only time they are the same thing is at 45 Deg ) ..........that confuses people as to what the protocol is, as many rods are only rated at 45 Deg........so its easy to misunderstand what they are meaning by what they are saying when its not at 45 Deg.
     
  6. CATCHINJIANTS

    CATCHINJIANTS Senior Member

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    Very very technical and informational post. I have some questions for you all. I have found that the angles play a huge role in drag the hard way.
    i.e
    [​IMG]

    I really do like using very heavy drags, my question is during certin situations where line angles are light such as

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Beach angles with heavy drag... should rods be built different???? guide placement? blank ratings??

    I have been working on some things to aid me in using very high stopping power drags (80-90lbs) flat angles only... The drag pod

    [​IMG]
    I have 78lbs of drag being pulled off in the pic
    This drag pod allows me to have a mobile rail and aids me in being able to apply massive amounts of stopping drag.

    Any tech advice on the my situations?
    Current set up for my flat angle stopping power... Super Seeker 6463XXXXH cut back to 5'6" all heavy SIC guides backed with the Avet T-rex and 200lb line

    Thanks fellas and sorry for the post hijack it just seemed like the right place for my thoughts
     
  7. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

    5,663
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    Any tech advice on the my situations?..................... sorry for the post hijack it just seemed like the right place for my thoughts

    It is a bit off-thread , and a very specialised application, but it is about harnesses etc , so lets do a quick run thru of your queries.

    1."Beach angles with heavy drag... should rods be built different???? guide placement? blank ratings?? "
    Guides:
    the basics are that more guides better protect the blank from stress than less guides & in your application you are not suffering any penalty from guideweight affecting rod action.
    ............that said I don't see any significant issues with the rod builds pictured as far as guide placement.
    Blank ratings & blank type:
    With lower rod angles you shift the leverage forces REARWARDS into the butt area.
    with the drag levels you indicate , the blank stress is going to be very high immediately infront of the reelseat.
    - as discussed in the thread above , shorter, faster taper blanks with a heavy wall butt is the right kind of blank for your application.
    - when you are using heavy rated blanks and you load them highly the heavy wall ,more rigid blank sections don't deflect much & you don't get visual clues ( deflection)that you are stressing the blank matrix near their limits.
    ie
    with a rigid blank matrix with high rigidity from shape factors ( diameter & wall thickness ) a small increase in deflection is accompanied by a huge increase in stress in the blank matrix.
    - best blank materials for your application would be a composite F/G-C/F blank type ............... rather than full F/G or full C/F.
    - The heavy rigid reelseat is going to create significant stress concentration immediately infront of it if the blank chosen is deflecting very much in that area.
    ie

    http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab326/cjfloyd/bent%20rods/P1280181.jpg

    ie
    too light rating & too much butt deflection.( serious stress levels infront of the reelseat.

    So you need blanks with a high rating & heavy butt dimensions that keep the deflection away from the reelseat area

    DragPod:
    Good thinking, kool name , kool idea.
    You have created a seesaw pivot point tho, at the reelseat ( your rod bucket is no longer a pivot point in the lever configuration .........the rod butt is now a source of forces generated by the fish against you with a significant mechanical advantage...........which you must oppose).
    -The force from line tension generated in the gimbal on the butt is UPWARDS ( from your pod setup).
    - The harness angles become marginal in generating sufficient downwards vectored force to oppose the upwards force of the butt gimbal,s your rod angles get lower ...........because your harness angle gets lower.
    ( the family jewels are at risk..........He He)
    - great for opposing a running fish ............not so great I suggest for pumping a fish as the pumping arc for line recovery will be small & the force requirements from the harness high in doing it.
    NB........with a fish a long way out to sea on its longest runs the angles between line at tip & your harness are going to be extremely marginal in stopping the gimbal & thighpad rising

    from a technical standpoint you would be in a better position if your pod was pivoting forward of your reel & the harness forces were rearwards of the pivot point.( this increases the leverage of the forces generated from your harness)

    In consideration of the forces & angles involved I would suggest a longer rodbutt & a higher pivot point to match by raising the height of the pod pivot point.
    - a couple of inches higher & a couple of inches forward of the reel for the pivot point will make a significant difference in the effectiveness of your harness in the vectored forces it is generating.

    A flat beach where you are unable to place yourself above the waterline is going to be your most risky scenario, generating line angles your harness & pod pivot location will have the greatest difficulty coping with.

    I'm only looking at pics & estimating force directions...........you are pulling on it..............He He

    FWIW