Usage of belts and harnesses and their effect on rods.

Paul and Sammi,

That is certainly great info. I would prefer to use a harness on decent sized fish, as I have a very weak back and a harness is really a necessity.

Would it be possible to post up some photos to show the correct angle of a jigging/popping rod in a strap and harness? It will help to hopefully avoid any rod breakage.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

The point being made here by Saltywater is absolutely correct
The use of a harness is to change the muscle groups that exert the angler input power to the blank and reduce lower back strain.
doing that does not change the inherent power/strength of the blank on its own ...........IF you do not change the rod angles you are fighting the fish with.
You change the rod angle towards highsticking when you shift from a standard waist belt to a belt with a "drop-down" thigh pad by lowering the pivot point of the rod butt.
If you are using a drag setting that is near the maximum of the blank you need to compensate by reducing drag setting to allow for the increased load angle on the rod.
Lowering the angler effort input location from the foregrip to the reelseat increases the effort you have to apply , but the harness allows you to use different muscle groups that have more power & energy reserves than your arms , shoulders , and back ( you are primarily then using body weight & thigh muscles).

The stress in a rod blank is determined by :-
- line load
- angle of line to the rod
- the deflected curve of the rod ( action)
and
- effective length of the rod.

popping rods are longer than standup rods and carry higher stress loads towards the reelseat of the popping rod due to the increased rod length.

when putting a harness on a popping rod you are increasing the effective lever length between tip & where the angler is inputting the effort, as you move the angler input point from the foregrip to the reelseat...........the increasing diameter & wall thickness of the blank design can accomodate this ( in general terms)...........in other threads we have discussed stress concentration in reelseat attachment , but this is another matter.

when you swap a standard waist belt for a 'drop-down' belt with thighpads you increase the rod angle , with the same drag setting this shifts the deflection of the blank towards the tip & increases stress towards the tip .
When you lower the butt in your belt you have only two ways to manage increased stress in the blank, If you are using the rod near the maximum drag rating of the blank:-
- lower the rod pumping stroke
This is counterproductive as the boat gunwhale typically limits the bottom of the rod stroke & you lose pumping stroke. It also increases the angle of the harness on the rod & increases the effort you have to put in, to maintain the same line load........if you lengthen the harness straps to change the rod angle. Bending your back further to lower the rod angle is even worse on the angler.


- lower the drag setting to manage the line load on the blank at its higher angle and manage the stress in the blank created by the higher rod angle, while maintaining a comfortable fighting stance.

On the other hand;
IF you are using a 30# drag rated rod at 20-25# drag & you put a harness on with a drop-down belt you should not be over-stressing the blank from the changed rod angle, if you keep that drag setting ............just don't crank the drag up because you think you can give the fish 'hell' because you have put a harness on.............He He

Using a harness & swapping from a standard waist belt to a drop-down belt with thigh pads has altered the way you are powering & stressing the blank because YOU have changed the way YOU are using it...........the rod hasn't changed.

 

Paul & Sami, and Denis,

This is very helpful information in terms of managing the stresses on the angler's body (primarily the back) and on the rod blank (whose drag rating gains importance). Thanks.

sbwiv (from NYC, in Port Macquarie AU)

 

Thanks Sami, Paul and Denis. Some good information there. However, could you please include a diagram, next time? I'm trying to figure out if those principles fit into Newtons First Law or Second Law of Physics...

 

Thanks Sami, Paul and Denis. Some good information there. However, could you please include a diagram, next time? I'm trying to figure out if those principles fit into ...

Hey Doc,
From my point of views those physics fits into a bit of common sense
I guess i am ready to go back to school to learn about Newtons First Law or Second Law of Physics after this threads

 

here we go....

 

I tried the black magic harness with a spinning rod on a big fish with a 38 lbs drag.it is a lot easier to handle much more comfortable but risky for the rod ,specially when the fish is right under the boat and the rod and reel are attached to the harness.All what have been said earlier is very important and usefull.

 

very useful info, much appreciated

 

here we go....

View attachment 42884


Ummmm.............what were you tabulating tip to stripper Carlos ?????

 

I tried the black magic harness with a spinning rod on a big fish with a 38 lbs drag.it is a lot easier to handle much more comfortable but risky for the rod ,specially when the fish is right under the boat and the rod and reel are attached to the harness.All what have been said earlier is very important and usefull.

Here's some interesting numbers Wahib.
any idea what tension the harness is carrying in that configuration if you don't use your arm on the foregrip ????

without fully analysing the effort efficiency of the rod in that format at 38# drag
the angler input effort is somewhere around 1:4 perpendicular to the rod at the reelseat.
ie somewhere around ~150# ( probably higher)
the tension in the harness will be ~450#total (~ 225# per side )
This is what I mean in my above post by the effort you have to put in increasing when you lower the pumping stroke by lengthening the harness straps to enable you to lower the rod angle with a harness

several take-home messages from that quick calc.

- You are not going to remain upright at 38#drag.............you are going swimming ............If you let go of the foregrip and the fish lunges at 38# drag........as you cannot supply the +450# force to make the drag slip...........at the posture in the pic............you need to be leaning further backwards to achieve the required level of force.
( with this type of configuration it can be seen how some have sheared the reelstem ............He He. )

- you need to supply approx 50% of the angler effort thru the arm on the foregrip to avoid mishap .

this is risky business with that harness format.
- it provides a nice assist BUT the risks if anything happens & you let go of the foregrip is quite serious.

- In this case the configuration is survivable for the angler with a drop down belt and thigh pads as the harness tension will drop to ~250# ( by altering the vectored forces from bucket around your butt ( not the rods butt ......e He )..& body weight posture & knees locked under the gunwhale can provide that.

- for a DIY harness the numbers indicate the SWL of the material you make the harness straps & lugs from.
( for ropes/straps & fabric the SWL ratio should be approx 1:3 )

Whaa Ha Ha............this is first law physics:-
for every force there has to be an equal & opposite force for the system to be in equilibrium.
( in this case equilibrium is the angler remaining standing).

this is then influenced by Flexible lever physics ( not many people understand the dynamics of flexible levers ........they are VERY different to rigid levers )
AND
Vector force physics.

The line load applied by the fish is providing force multipliers the angler has to work against.
( they are not in the anglers favour ............they are in the fish's favour).

Interesting ratios are that :-

- At the foregrip, in the pic, the fish has an advantage of approx 4.5:1 at typical angler arm angles

At the reelseat in the configuration pictured the fish has an advantage of approx 12:1 at the harness angle shown.

Beware what you are changing in the fish's favour when you put on a harness .............you shift the muscles in play & the way you use bodyweight , and this is good for the angler.
BUT
you have to be able to provide the increased force input to match the mechanical inefficiency the configuration has introduced.........or you can end up swimming with the fishes.

tips on harness location on the fishers butt.
- its not a good move to have the line of attack of the harness straps below the crown of your butt ( arse)
- you have the same muscle groups in play & minimal back strain with the line of attack of the harness straps as high as the base of your spine.
and this increases the mechanical efficiency of the use of your thigh muscles & bodyweight.
- a slim harness pad will NOT stay there...........it will only stay near the crown of your butt ( arse)...........to achieve optimal mechanical efficiency the harness pad needs to be the contoured "full bucket" type............as the way this type of harness "cups" your butt ( arse) enables it to stay in place with a higher angle of attack to the harness straps.

FWIW.

He He ..........physics is a wonderful thing.........so long as you are using the right physics for the situation............the hard part is determining what the right physics for the situation is............there's lots of physics & lots of options to assume the wrong physics for the situation.

hope I have explained the above in terms that everyone can understand.

 

denis... is there anything you don't know..... very interesting... thank you

 

Impressive as always DenisB

 

Here's some interesting numbers Wahib.
any idea what tension the harness is carrying in that configuration if you don't use your arm on the foregrip ????

without fully analysing the effort efficiency of the rod in that format at 38# drag
the angler input effort is somewhere around 1:4 perpendicular to the rod at the reelseat.
ie somewhere around ~150# ( probably higher)
the tension in the harness will be ~450#total (~ 225# per side )
This is what I mean in my above post by the effort you have to put in increasing when you lower the pumping stroke by lengthening the harness straps to enable you to lower the rod angle with a harness

several take-home messages from that quick calc.

- You are not going to remain upright at 38#drag.............you are going swimming ............If you let go of the foregrip and the fish lunges at 38# drag........as you cannot supply the +450# force to make the drag slip...........at the posture in the pic............you need to be leaning further backwards to achieve the required level of force.
( with this type of configuration it can be seen how some have sheared the reelstem ............He He. )

- you need to supply approx 50% of the angler effort thru the arm on the foregrip to avoid mishap .

this is risky business with that harness format.
- it provides a nice assist BUT the risks if anything happens & you let go of the foregrip is quite serious.

- In this case the configuration is survivable for the angler with a drop down belt and thigh pads as the harness tension will drop to ~250# ( by altering the vectored forces from bucket around your butt ( not the rods butt ......e He )..& body weight posture & knees locked under the gunwhale can provide that.

- for a DIY harness the numbers indicate the SWL of the material you make the harness straps & lugs from.
( for ropes/straps & fabric the SWL ratio should be approx 1:3 )

Whaa Ha Ha............this is first law physics:-
for every force there has to be an equal & opposite force for the system to be in equilibrium.
( in this case equilibrium is the angler remaining standing).

this is then influenced by Flexible lever physics ( not many people understand the dynamics of flexible levers ........they are VERY different to rigid levers )
AND
Vector force physics.

The line load applied by the fish is providing force multipliers the angler has to work against.
( they are not in the anglers favour ............they are in the fish's favour).

Interesting ratios are that :-

- At the foregrip, in the pic, the fish has an advantage of approx 4.5:1 at typical angler arm angles

At the reelseat in the configuration pictured the fish has an advantage of approx 12:1 at the harness angle shown.

Beware what you are changing in the fish's favour when you put on a harness .............you shift the muscles in play & the way you use bodyweight , and this is good for the angler.
BUT
you have to be able to provide the increased force input to match the mechanical inefficiency the configuration has introduced.........or you can end up swimming with the fishes.

tips on harness location on the fishers butt.
- its not a good move to have the line of attack of the harness straps below the crown of your butt ( arse)
- you have the same muscle groups in play & minimal back strain with the line of attack of the harness straps as high as the base of your spine.
and this increases the mechanical efficiency of the use of your thigh muscles & bodyweight.
- a slim harness pad will NOT stay there...........it will only stay near the crown of your butt ( arse)...........to achieve optimal mechanical efficiency the harness pad needs to be the contoured "full bucket" type............as the way this type of harness "cups" your butt ( arse) enables it to stay in place with a higher angle of attack to the harness straps.

FWIW.

He He ..........physics is a wonderful thing.........so long as you are using the right physics for the situation............the hard part is determining what the right physics for the situation is............there's lots of physics & lots of options to assume the wrong physics for the situation.

hope I have explained the above in terms that everyone can understand.

Screw Newton. I'm sticking with Denis, (and just a belt)!

 

Sami:

you know I am a huge fan of your fighting style.............because I appreciate the thought you have put into aggravating the fish to run & deplete its energy resources faster than it might otherwise & you have a great sense of human movement , weight distribution in your fighting stance & getting excellent angler effort efficiency that others can emulate..........if they understand what & why you are doing what you do.
..........its not pissing in your pocket.........its merely recognition of excellence...........you do it intuitively, completely in tune with your environment.


denis... is there anything you don't know..... very interesting... thank you

I'm an old fart who has done a bunch of things others haven't in a long fishing career & examined some of them very carefully.( some of that took a lot of researching the possible physics that could be applying to the situation).........that in itself truth tested some longstanding myths about fishing tackle & led in some cases to controversy where others inherited myths without testing them............He He
Basically Carlos ...........I'm a fishing tragic ..........trying to understand how & why things work..........proving to myself, the how & why with a high degree of certainty .

...............The question was ............"What were you tabulating tip to stripper in the pic you posted." ( ie the hand written table under the rod) .............or was it something someone else posted & you re-posted.
( I sense a particular approach in that tabulation..........but don't want to lead your response )


More on the efficiency of setting up the contoured type harnesses:

The Black Magic type shown in Wahib's pic .............should be set up with the lower strap generating just sufficient tension to cup the underside of your butt ( arse) and stopping the harness pad slipping upwards. The majority of the tension should be in the upper strap where it generates the most force from your bodyweight at the best mechanical advantage.

There is more to this stuff than just strapping it on & cinching it up .
IF
you adjust the straps equally you are reducing the mechanical advantage of the harness & the active direction of the force from the harness is midway between the upper & lower straps..............you want most of the force from your body weight acting thru the TOP strap to maximise efficiency.

Black Magic are not the only ones who market this type of harness.

a good way to setup a harness is to stand in a boat on a trailer with a weight equal to your intended drag setting on the ground & adjust your harness as you go thru pumping motions till you get the lower harness strap stopping your harness pad from slipping upwards ( with a bit of a safety margin).
ie
We tune rods, reels & lures for best effect..............a harness is no different............if you are going to use one ...........set it up efficiently........and think carefully about your exit plan if things get out of control...............you need to be thinking about reducing drag QUICKLY.( as your first response, rather than trying to adjust posture)
You can get back in the fight when you have re-established control over your stance/posture.

short Tuna-Standup Game Rods & jig rods reduce the mechanical advantage the fish has over the angler & creates a situation where the angler's body weight & muscle power can dominate the line tension & drag...............longer popping rods are necessary for lurecasting, and everyone needs to be aware of how that longer rod changes the situation and risk to the angler when using a harness.

 

Thank you for starting this thread. We have seen every brand of jigging popping rod broken in our shop. Looking at the way the blanks broke its almost always angler error as in a high stick. The use of a full bucket harness has been one of the main reasons for the high sticking and the breakage.
The problem becomes magnified when the angler grabs the fore grip of the rod and pumps it due to the harness being positioned incorrectly on the body.

The lower rod angle of the drop down style harness has the rod tip already over leveraged and then once the angler feels unsafe or uncomfortable he/she grabs the foregrip on the rod pumps it to relieve some of the forces that the incorrectly placed harness has put on the body. It makes the situation safe momentarily but, the decreased length of the pumping stroke as Denis calls it forces the angler to attempt to stand up and once again the rod and line angle will cause the blank to fail.

I find it interesting that when a customer wants to buy a rod and reel the main questions are always how much drag can I fish it at! The answer is never what they want to hear in that its a great deal less than you think. So the reel gets set up at some configuration based on line strength and the poor fishing rod is rarely considered to be the fuse in the circuit. Once angler effort is actually increased by the use of a bucket harness the rod is put into the position it was never designed for and fails.

The situation gets worse if the reel selected has lugs. The length of the straps on the reel are usually adjusted for comfort not mechanical advantage. So the forces on the tip of the rod are increased greatly and we see the very common 8-12" broken top of the blank.

Again thank you Sami and Denis B for this valuable information.

 

Sami:

you know I am a huge fan of your fighting style.............because I appreciate the thought you have put into aggravating the fish to run & deplete its energy resources faster than it might otherwise & you have a great sense of human movement , weight distribution in your fighting stance & getting excellent angler effort efficiency that others can emulate..........if they understand what & why you are doing what you do.
..........its not pissing in your pocket.........its merely recognition of excellence...........you do it intuitively, completely in tune with your environment.




I'm an old fart who has done a bunch of things others haven't in a long fishing career & examined some of them very carefully.( some of that took a lot of researching the possible physics that could be applying to the situation).........that in itself truth tested some longstanding myths about fishing tackle & led in some cases to controversy where others inherited myths without testing them............He He
Basically Carlos ...........I'm a fishing tragic ..........trying to understand how & why things work..........proving to myself, the how & why with a high degree of certainty .

...............The question was ............"What were you tabulating tip to stripper in the pic you posted." ( ie the hand written table under the rod) .............or was it something someone else posted & you re-posted.
( I sense a particular approach in that tabulation..........but don't want to lead your response )


More on the efficiency of setting up the contoured type harnesses:

The Black Magic type shown in Wahib's pic .............should be set up with the lower strap generating just sufficient tension to cup the underside of your butt ( arse) and stopping the harness pad slipping upwards. The majority of the tension should be in the upper strap where it generates the most force from your bodyweight at the best mechanical advantage.

There is more to this stuff than just strapping it on & cinching it up .
IF
you adjust the straps equally you are reducing the mechanical advantage of the harness & the active direction of the force from the harness is midway between the upper & lower straps..............you want most of the force from your body weight acting thru the TOP strap to maximise efficiency.

Black Magic are not the only ones who market this type of harness.

a good way to setup a harness is to stand in a boat on a trailer with a weight equal to your intended drag setting on the ground & adjust your harness as you go thru pumping motions till you get the lower harness strap stopping your harness pad from slipping upwards ( with a bit of a safety margin).
ie
We tune rods, reels & lures for best effect..............a harness is no different............if you are going to use one ...........set it up efficiently........and think carefully about your exit plan if things get out of control...............you need to be thinking about reducing drag QUICKLY.( as your first response, rather than trying to adjust posture)
You can get back in the fight when you have re-established control over your stance/posture.

short Tuna-Standup Game Rods & jig rods reduce the mechanical advantage the fish has over the angler & creates a situation where the angler's body weight & muscle power can dominate the line tension & drag...............longer popping rods are necessary for lurecasting, and everyone needs to be aware of how that longer rod changes the situation and risk to the angler when using a harness.
That picture was from an old thread about two years ago when someone caught a 300 blue fin on a 40/60 tuna sniper and 18k gosa. And for what I remember they come with this pic where according to them they putted like 34 pounds of drag on the rod.

 

That picture was from an old thread about two years ago when someone caught a 300 blue fin on a 40/60 tuna sniper and 18k gosa. And for what I remember they come with this pic where according to them they putted like 34 pounds of drag on the rod.

thanks Carlos.

Its off-thread but interesting in what was trying to be calculated:-

The calcs actually relate to the force between the line & the guides on the blank.
These are carried as a tension force between the guide & the hoop of blank it is wrapped onto..................they have almost nothing to do with drag generation ( they are generated by drag & blank deflection)................they have nothing to do with generating blank deflection ( they are created by the blank deflection at the drag & rod orientation ).

The forces calculated by the line on the guides at the friction co-efficient between line & guide adds at best 1-2# of drag to the reel drag setting in the line exiting the tip in a highly deflected rod ...........its very, very minimal in drag generation the friction values of line & guide make it almost negligible.

Its a pic of pretty serious highsticking & the blank is very highly stressed between guides 1-2,2-3, & 3-4 from the tip.
Any guide that gets an included line angle of less than about 150 Degrees is causing a lot of stress in the blank adjacent to that guide & dangerously so.
The danger is in the blank deflection in the span between guides that the line angle on the guide is creating as a "bowstring" force ( line tension drawing the 2 guides together & compressing the blank so it deflects from that force).........which is in addition to the primary deflection force of line load & direction AT THE TIP.

He He ...........the physics used in the calcs depicted are basic pulley theory from vectored forces which calculates the tension in the hanger of a pulley.
its valid physics ..........just not the vectored forces that create either meaningful drag or deflection.

Note that the sum of the guide forces calculated in the handwritten table under the rod is more than the drag claimed.
This is normal !!!!
The only things it tells you is :-
- the amount of force of the individual guides against the wraps that hold it on the rod
and
- if you take the line tension at the tip from the sum of the guide forces calculated ............it tells you approximately how much downward force there is on your rod gimbal bucket................He He He.
( and thats only a rough approximation BTW ).

Sorry for the diversion from the original thread content Sami/Paul...........but I would not want readers to misunderstand what the calcs in that pic were indicating.
This is an example of valid physics.........but the wrong physics for the job...........an easy mistake to make.

 

Great thread and it all makes sense. Sami if this is happening a lot with certain heavy jigging rods maybe it's time an extra drag rating is added to the rod? So along with the 45 degree max drag rating you can add another for say 30 degrees. This would really help those anglers wishing to fish Full harness and set their drags accordingly is the blank has been tested and rated accordingly for this style rather than just knock a few kilos off the original max drag rating.
Just a thought anyway.

 

Bunny
The higher stick rating I think you are talking about ,would be a 60 Deg rating rather than 30
30 is a 30 deg rod elevation above horizontal ( relative to a vertical line load ).............He He.
Some manufacturers do provide both a 45 & a (lowstick) 30 drag rating.

As anglers we need to apply a 45 drag rating as 45 Deg between rod butt & our line from water/fish to tip .............irrespective of where the rod is pointed.
the 30 rating is applied as 60 deg between rod butt & line.

The hard part for some , in the heat of battle, is remembering that the closer the line gets to the boat ..........the lower the top of the rod pump stroke needs to be.
ie , where the rod can point ( within the power rating of the blank used) depends on where the fish is.

The even harder part is the dichotomy that when you typically put a harness on .................you have to REDUCE DRAG when using a popping rod.........not give the fish hell because you have put a harness on...............That is counter-intuitive............and not the way many anglers think when they put that harness on..........and the whole point of the OP in the thread.
You can really only give that fish hell when you are using a short rod built for the job.
What you can do with a harnessed up stand-up tuna rod ............simply doesn't translate directly to harnessing a popping rod.
Similarly what you can do with a heavy wall fast taper rod does not translate directly into using a harness on a parabolic action jig rod either.
.............as Nev's thread & tests of the Physics discussed , proved the impact of stress concentration caused by a solid reelseat attached in the conventional fully glued & reinforced construction approach.............causing failure near/at the front of the reelseat when a harness was used on a short parabolic rod............The message there was that max load rating at 45 Deg needed to be reduced by 25%.

In this thread we have TALKED about the physics involved & you have to take the discussion at face value.
In Nev's thread ( a while back) the physics indicated a approx 25% reduction in blank strength & Nev tested the scenario ( at some expense) to show that the physics used was indeed correct, & a 25% loss in blank load at failure was experienced.
Readers can take heart that the physics discussed in this thread is not "snake oil" its real..............you ignore it at your own risk & should not expect the retailer to cover your mistakes in a rod warranty claim...........