Uni Knot Tag Frays Main Line

Discussion in 'Tackle and Rigging' started by pametfisher, Jun 12, 2009.

  1. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    After catching a 60", roughly 140 lb. tuna the other day, I checked over all my equipment for wear or problems.

    The leader I used was 80# Seaguar fluorocarbon connected to a 250# Spro barrel swivel, using a 4-turn Uni knot. The drag I used throughout the fight, which lasted 8 minutes, was the initial setting of 18 pounds. That means the maximum load on the line, after 150 yards was taken on the fist run, was 25-30 pounds.

    The Uni knot held fine and is no sign of damage or slipping. (The knot had been pretested to 40 pounds or so.) However, the area just above the tag of the knot had some damage that you can see in the photo below (when you feel the area, it is noticeably thinned). I don't know if the damage was caused by fighting the fish or by casting for several hours but it is clear that the tag did cause the fraying. There was also some thinning of the leader in the area of the fish's gill plate which leads me to feel that I should be using a heavier leader.

    Interesting that the Uni knot tag put more wear on the main line that the fish's gill plate. It seems that fluorocarbon can cut fluorocarbon. (I don't know if this would happen with mono.)

    I usually prefer a knot where the tag exits parallel to the main line, if the knot will be going through the guides, so that the tag doesn't catch as it moves through the guides. Contact with the guides can weaken a knot and I've seen shock leaders fail during casting from knot to guide contact. However, I now feel that for my terminal tackle knot I should use a knot that has the tag exiting perpendicular to the main line, or at least the tag is not touching a critical point.

    Lastly, I have read before that a leader should be replaced after each good fish. I think that is advice I will follow.
     

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  2. John_Madison CT

    John_Madison CT Senior Member

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    Pamet: I'm a big fan of the Palomar since it puts a double line through the ring. Anyway, i would have to agree that fighting a large fish should be followed by a leader change.
     

  3. cabosandinh

    cabosandinh Moderator

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    you can fix that sharp edge on the tag end with a hot tip
    (solder gun)
     
  4. gman

    gman Senior Member

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    Maybe it was damaged as you slide the knot down tight towards swivel during tightening. Ive noticed it as well
     
  5. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Pamet: I'm a big fan of the Palomar since it puts a double line through the ring. Anyway, i would have to agree that fighting a large fish should be followed by a leader change.

    I like the Palomar too (although its tag also touches the main line). I'm going to look at that and another idea. BTW, I used to like twice through knots but I found through research that most of the stress gets concentrated at the first turn, so the second time through doesn't add much, if any, strength--though it does add some friction, but that can be added by more turns if needed.

    you can fix that sharp edge on the tag end with a hot tip
    (solder gun)

    Just tried that and there is still some sharpness. Although I try to tie my knots at home. Sometimes you have to retie at sea, I'd rather not have to heat under those conditions. It's pretty windy where I fish.

    Maybe it was damaged as you slide the knot down tight towards swivel during tightening. Ive noticed it as well

    Good thought, I have seen the line compressed when tightening. This time though, it's a knot that I made at home and pre-pulled to 40-50 lbs to set and then inspected so I know that it's not from tightening.

    I was surprised to see this damage. The fluorocarbon is stiff and the tag is short, so it doesn't seem to flex much. The line is frayed (shredded) right where it touches the tag and exactly on that side. Perhaps it's the casting, not sure.

    All I know is I would not want to fight a fish for long with that damage. I think I will now go and break the knot to see what the strength is with the damage and report back.

    Went back and tested the frayed line.

    This 80# Seaguar FC normally tests to 90 lbs.
    The line broke at the frayed point between 55 lbs. and 57.5 lbs.
    (The Uni in this line usually tests to about 70 lbs.)

    So that little tag frayed the line and reduced its strength by about 40%--impressive.

    A friend on another board suggested using 600 grit sandpaper to take the edge off the cut line. That's sounding like a good idea.
     
  6. gman

    gman Senior Member

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    is there a way in your opinion to limit the compression marks while sliding knot on a side not Im glad you went with the swivel set up
     
  7. A.whitman

    A.whitman Senior Member

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  8. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    is there a way in your opinion to limit the compression marks while sliding knot on a side not Im glad you went with the swivel set up

    I make my Uni knots slowly so that all the wraps end up on top then only pull the tag enough to snug the wraps firmly. Then I slide the knot down and half set it. Then pull the tag hard. then firmly set the knot at 2/3 of what I think it should hold.

    Given that I go through that drill, I got a laugh (only because I didn't lose a fish) out of how much damage that little tag did.

    I'm thinking now that I will leave the tag about twice as long and hit it with some 600 grit paper. Since I premake all my leaders and use loop to loop, I can do that ahead of time.

    I feel that the swivel and split ring is essential. If you tie directly to the lure, as you pull the line from different directions, the knot moves around on what you've tied it to. With the swivel and split ring, the swivel and ring do all the moving, taking a lot of wear off the knot.
     
  9. BretABaker

    BretABaker Guest

    I tie the same knot that Kil uses.......I'll admit i've been lazy with twists at times as well, so i'll make sure i use 7 or 8. However - did you notice any weakening or fraying with this knot? I've never noticed and and never had one fail, so am curious if its an issue.
     
  10. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    I tie the same knot that Kil uses.......I'll admit i've been lazy with twists at times as well, so i'll make sure i use 7 or 8. However - did you notice any weakening or fraying with this knot? I've never noticed and and never had one fail, so am curious if its an issue.

    Kil mentioned to me that he used a different knot. Can you attach the drawing of it? I haven't used it so I can't say.

    The Uni knot is plenty strong, I truly think the abrasion is the tag, having looked at it carefully. I longer tag would be less stiff and hitting it with sandpaper would dull the sharp edge.

    The other approach would be a different knot where the tag is away from the line. I'll be interested to see the one you mentioned.
     
  11. BretABaker

    BretABaker Guest

    this is a pretty crude picture of it. when i get back tonight, i'll post more pictures of me actually tying it. it doubles through the eye of the hook/jig/swivel/whatever which i like.

    View attachment 7287
     

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  12. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    this is a pretty crude picture of it. when i get back tonight, i'll post more pictures of me actually tying it. it doubles through the eye of the hook/jig/swivel/whatever which i like.



    That's a good clear picture, somewhat like a San Diego Jam Knot. I'll give it a try.
     
  13. fathom

    fathom Lifetime Supporting Members

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    Don't fret the tag so much. If you are using windon or pr knot to attach leader, you will have enough length for several reties. check frequently, retie at first sign of wear.
    lubricate knots before sinching, floro will burn itself on dry sinch.
     
  14. BretABaker

    BretABaker Guest

    That's a good clear picture, somewhat like a San Diego Jam Knot. I'll give it a try.

    yeah, thats what i think - a suped up san diego pretty much.

    ive tied with up to 100lb fluorocarbon so its a good knot to tie even with stiffer leaders.
     
  15. gman

    gman Senior Member

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    this is a pretty crude picture of it. when i get back tonight, i'll post more pictures of me actually tying it. it doubles through the eye of the hook/jig/swivel/whatever which i like.

    View attachment 7287


    Bret your problem isn't the knot it that the hook eye is bigger than the hook point itself ahahahahahaha
     
  16. BretABaker

    BretABaker Guest

    Bret your problem isn't the knot it that the hook eye is bigger than the hook point itself ahahahahahaha


    lol - no idea who drew this but that hook is a little suspect. i don't think owner makes one like that :)

    the hook point doesnt look too sharp either!
     
  17. gman

    gman Senior Member

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    lol - no idea who drew this but that hook is a little suspect. i don't think owner makes one like that :)

    the hook point doesnt look too sharp either!


    hahaah i thought you made it LMAO
     
  18. BretABaker

    BretABaker Guest

    no........my drawing would suck worse than that!!!
     
  19. jureal

    jureal Senior Member

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    I am not a fan of the uni. I like the reversed Trilene knot for heavy line. Also, the nail knot is a strong knot but like the uni, it exits parallel to the main line. I am somewhat surprised that the tag can do that much damage. It is likely that it did not happen during the fight but perhaps ( like you said ) from the constant casting? Thanks, this is the first for me.
     
  20. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    I am not a fan of the uni. I like the reversed Trilene knot for heavy line. Also, the nail knot is a strong knot but like the uni, it exits parallel to the main line. I am somewhat surprised that the tag can do that much damage. It is likely that it did not happen during the fight but perhaps ( like you said ) from the constant casting? Thanks, this is the first for me.

    I start with a Uni but carefully pull it together so that it actually becomes a Nail (or Scaffold) knot. And I too was very surprised by what I saw. I had trimmed the tag very neatly with a Jinkai mono cutter (so it was a very clean, sharp cut?).

    It almost seems like it has to be the casting but who knows.

    I'm not familiar with the Reverse Trilene, do you know where I can find a drawing of it (is it the one Bret showed?)?