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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
PR knot becomes popular and the trend will continue until they introduce hollow PE lines.
Unlike Mid Knot, Bobbin is required to be used for PR knot.

Here is video how to tie PR Knot by using a bobbin by Stout, which makes the best PR knot bobbin though it is very expensive ($200).
Some use regular bobbins with weight successfully.

ƒ{ƒrƒ"ƒmƒbƒ^[Žg-p•û[email protected]

1. tighten the coil on the tube

2.pass PEline thought the tube and rotate the PEline on "rolling" about 10 - 15 times.

3.adjust the tension by closing "drag" and find suitable tension level for you. (normally 0.5kg - 1 kg)

4.overlap each other of about 30 cm leader and 30 cm PE line

5.wrap the lines to your right middle and ring fingers about 3 times.

6.do the same for the left fingers too.
(The shorter the distance bettern your hands, the easier to do this)

7.from right to left hand, rotate about 4 - 5 times

8.from left to right hand, rotate about 4 - 5 times.
(when doing this, put your left index finger on the knot, then rotate.)

9. rotate the whole part ( no space between the lines and tube to create more tention)
You can also adjust the tension by closing "drag". 7-10 cm distance between the finger and the bobbin is recommended.

10. cut PEline at 30 cm after compeletion of rotating.

11.make half hitch knot twice at the end of the line.

12.rotate/wrap the lines twice to the "line folder".

13.cu the remaining leader. then burin the end of the leader with a lighter.

14. hold the leader still with your left hand and make half hitch knots using PE line with your right hand. ( don't make it too short.)

15. make "end-knot" and cut the Pe line (burn the end of PE line.

It is interesting to read the background of PR knot by Stout.

The strongest line system that surpasses the other line systems has been developed in Nagasaki. It is called 'PR Knot'. In terms of combination of PE line and leader, there are no better knots than this. The most powerful PR knot machine is called 'Bobbin Knotter'.

The material of the leader that is made of Nylon and Fluorocarbon is monofilament (single line), whereas the main line, PE line, is braided (stranded) line. How to bind these two materials together? It took long time to figure that out. PE is a bundle of high polymer polyethylene fibers (Dyneema) and it shows the highest strength when each fiber has been applied with the same burden. However, when PE with 2 to 3% of elasticity is combined with a leader, it is really difficult to put even burden on all of the fibers. The main cause of decrease in the strength of line system lies here. It sometimes happens that even the fibers are half-stretched, the other half do not get any burdens at all, and in that case, the strength will be halved as well. Moreover, since high polymer polyethylene is so hard, there is a reason that the material is used as stranded line. If single line, or monofilament, is used, it will easily be broken when it is bent. Less elasticity means it is hard. PE is the line, which cannot be used as a single line, brings the flexibility out by making it thin and combine it together. However, the hardness of the line remains the same even making it thin. The strength of the line decreases dramatically when it is bent. All jiggers know the fact that the line breaks when it has a bump in middle of PE line. The bump caused by a knot on PE line, which is bent at acute angle, breaks rather than snaps. I want you to think that do PE line bent sharply in the existing line systems?
A knot that can solve the weakness of PE line has been developed by Mr Harada of an Outdoor Shop 'Pack Rat' in Nagasaki. The knot named 'PR knot' has been spread all over the country by Mr Iwasaki, who is a captain of Koryo-maru in Hirado, home of Hiramasa (Kingfish) fishing.
The PE line, which has been winded gently to a leader without bending it by Bobbin Knotter, makes each fibers stretched evenly, and after that, it is winded back closely and locked by spin of the Bobby Knotter. There are no factors that the line's strength is decreased. In few years time, most of the anglers who love jigging will use the PR knot and challenge for the big ones to make their dreams come true.
 

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There are a couple of important Keys to the use of the Page Ranking knot.
1. the underlay wraps are 'open' spiral and not 'closed' spiral
2. the over wrap is a high tension 'closed spiral'
- the primary strain in the knot is taken in the underwrap layer and the overwrap layer locks the knot together ( effectively as a 'serving' ) .
- The Page Ranking Knot is a 'friction' knot............it is the friction between the mono/flouro leader and the PE underwrap that makes the knot work. This is why the underwrap is an open spiral and the closed spiral overwrap increases the pressure on the open underwrap spiral to maximise friction between the leader & the PE underwrap.

PR knot is excellent "100%" knot on mono ..........irrespective of whether the mono is higher or lower BS than the PE.

Fluoro leaders however require preparation prior to tying the PR knot.
Fluoro leaders higher than the PE BS need to be prepared in the PR knot length proposed by scrubbing with fine sandpaper. This is because Fluoro is harder than mono & smooth fluoro does not generate adequate friction with the underwraps & slippage of fluoro leaders with repetitive casting use has been experienced when the fluoro is not lightly scuffed.
The very small loss of BS in lightly scuffing the leader is not an issue where the leader is heavier than the PE BS.
Fluoro leaders lower than the PE BS are not recommended..........for the above obvious reason...........unless you are prepared to accept the slightly reduced BS of the lighter fluoro leader introduced by the scuffing preparation.

Remember: PR Knots tend to fail where the PE wraps are not high enough tension or the overwraps are not 'closed' spiral. The main issue with open spiral overwraps is that the PR knot can reduce its length from contact with guides under high tension with repetitive use going in & out of the guides, this dramatically reduces the pressure on the underwraps & slippage of the leader out of the PR knot can be experienced.

Like every knot it must be done correctly to be effective & every knot has a right way & a heap of wrong ways to tie it. Understanding how & why the knot works helps avoid using one of the multitude of wrong ways to tie that knot.

Adhesives can be applied to the completed knot if you desire for extra 'belts & braces'............. this is a personal preference , but is not necessary with correctly tied PR Knots.
Relying on an adhesive to "save" a poorly tied PR Knot is not a wise move.

Lastly:.........the PR Knot is not a "Chinese Finger Grip" type Knot.........don't think that it is this type of gripping knot.
 
G

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denis - would you explain what you mean by closed or open spiral? ive never had a P.R. knot fail (yet), but would just like to visualize what you're saying. Thanks
 
G

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Wow nice knot. from where can I buy a Non expensive and not so cheap in material Bobin??

fly tying bobbin and a spool of lead line. its what i use. $8 i think.
 

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-- Tackle Ho --
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For anyone that would like to get a affordable Page Ranking bobbin, what I used to do is get a fly tying tool and get a spool of thread, doesn't have to be big. take out all the line and get lead tape put it around the spool a couple of times, the best place to get lead tape is golf store (every store should have it), good thing about golf store lead tape is that it has adhesive already on it. After putting on the lead tape, I take a electrical tape, tape around the lead tape a bit and you are all set. There is another version as well, making it out of egg sinker, I have seen it but don't know how to make it, actually I would won't want to use it since that egg sinker could become a bullet when making the knot. :D :D :p :p At the moment, I got the Short PR knot bobbin and it is expensive but it is one nice tool.
 

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I must agree that I have never had a failure with the Page Ranking breaking and/or slipping. I also pull real hard on any knot before fishing it. I have had some Page Ranking start to unravel when I used half hitches. I no longer half hitches. I tie the knot and then one finishing knot like finishing off a guide wrap.

I have tied on many monos and flouros and never had a problem with hardness of lines. I can see it requiring more wraps or the like, but i never "roughed / scuffed" the coating to get the braid to bite.

PS I like the bobbins, but I use a 3-4oz bank sinker and a rubber band to tie PR Knots.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
DenisB, thanks for the information. Guys like you, pametfisher and other members who can provide quantitative data are assets to this site.

I heard others have problem to make knots with fluoro carbon leaderline. As jig42na said, I haven't had any problem with fluoro carbon for making Mid Knot which has the same concept of Page Ranking knot. Instead I sometimes have problems when using soft leader lines.

Stout bobbin is very nice, but it is too pricy. There must be cheaper weighted bobbins in the market.

I really don't like half hitch knot to finish the knot. Any better suggestions ?
 

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That is just a crazy difficult knot to tie. I love learning new knots but like you Kil I like to keep things simple and easy. That knot is by no means simple or easy to tie. To many steps and to many tools required. I am still doing some testig and research and when I come up with something I will be sure and share it hear NO CHARGE!
 

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YouTube - PR Knot Bobbin

i finish my pr's the way this guy does.

nice clean finish.

100% knots take time there is no quick solution that i know of.

i can do 3 or 4 pr knots in the time it takes me to make a hollow end loop splice. which is the only other 100% knot i have tried. both are worth the time in my opinion. with the advantage going to the hollow end loop do its quick change out.
 

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YouTube - PR Knot Bobbin

i finish my pr's the way this guy does.

nice clean finish.

100% knots take time there is no quick solution that i know of.

i can do 3 or 4 pr knots in the time it takes me to make a hollow end loop splice. which is the only other 100% knot i have tried. both are worth the time in my opinion. with the advantage going to the hollow end loop do its quick change out.

I can do the hollow to solid splices in less than 5 mins. and this is with the serve and gluing. I am working on a better way to finish the serve to get rid of the gluing part kind of like what Pametfisher does. If I can perfect this part of it than it will make it even faster and way easier than the PR knot.
 

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YouTube - PR Knot Bobbin

i finish my pr's the way this guy does.

nice clean finish.

100% knots take time there is no quick solution that i know of.

i can do 3 or 4 pr knots in the time it takes me to make a hollow end loop splice. which is the only other 100% knot i have tried. both are worth the time in my opinion. with the advantage going to the hollow end loop do its quick change out.

A spliced end-loop, with practice, takes about 1 minute. The usual P.R. videos I see take several minutes. So I think the end-loop can become very fast.

And as you say, a single loop-to-loop takes about a minute and is very easy to "tie" exactly right.

This approach allows you to pre-manufacture leaders under ideal conditions at home (or purchase them) and "knot" them with a loop to loop at sea. You can also pre-attach swivels, etc. I think this is the best of all worlds.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
That is just a crazy difficult knot to tie. I love learning new knots but like you Kil I like to keep things simple and easy. That knot is by no means simple or easy to tie. To many steps and to many tools required. I am still doing some testig and research and when I come up with something I will be sure and share it hear NO CHARGE!
It is simple, wrap your braided line over mono line from left to right and go back to left to right. That is it. :)
 

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While researching this knot I’ve seen different steps added or omitted.

Question: Do you “tighten” the knot (pulling both main line and leader) so it bites into the leader material before melting the leader end?
 

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You can buy the Page Ranking Bobbin from this site -

PR Bobbin Holder for Braid Slicing - Jigs Direct Online Store

and sequential images of tying the PR knot.

Knots for Dummies

Denis, I've tied thousands of PR knots, many on Fluoro and never had a failure. I do understand that FC is harder and that the braid must "bite' into the hard surface. I don't make the tight wraps for FC connections any longer than for nylon. You are dead right about braid tension, it must be tight.
 

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I have a page Ranking knot bobbin from Jigs direct ( although l aways just refered to it as a bobbin winder?) It comes with a stainless weight (pin) concealed inside the winder that can be added or removed to increase or decrease the weight and inerta for winding. Most effective and very well priced
 

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denis - would you explain what you mean by closed or open spiral? ive never had a P.R. knot fail (yet), but would just like to visualize what you're saying. Thanks

Open spiral is like the wire in an overstretched tension spring........big gaps between the PE wraps.

Closed spiral is like a guide wrap on a rod each wrap touching the side of its neighbour.

As per the vid above. in regard to the under & overwraps.

not fussed with his method tho in a couple of aspects.
on completion of the overwrap I use 2 side-by-side overhand knots & then cut & melt the leader. It usually takes two more overhand knots to end up at the knob on the leader & then a couple more on the PE only and then a 3 turn reverse snell to finish with the tag facing back towards the leader.

I prefer overhand knots to half hitches as the tag on each half hitch faces outwards, whereas the tag on an overhand knot faces inwards and the line flow of overhand knots has less angle in the crossover than a half hitch when you make your next hitch.
I work the overhand knots tight against each other by jiggling the tag end back against each knot under tension.

After 30+ yrs of commercial fishing and mending millions upon millions of net meshes I learnt quickly that it is undesirable to end any multi-strand knot on anything other than a single strand ............hence finishing the PR on the PE only.
knots can simply work apart easier with use when two strands can potentially move against each other, with a knot between them.........like when the PR rattles up your guides on every cast retrieve.

The way you finish a PR is ' belts & braces ' and there are a multitude of potential ways ..............use what YOU are comfortable with & WHAT WORKS FOR YOU.

The key to the function of the PR is multiple overwraps for every single underwrap..............thats where the knot puts pressure on the PE as it enters the knot & where the friction is generated .

The only downside to a PR is its a ***** to tie reliably on a rocking boat..........so I usually don't.
Start the day with a PR tied at home & if I lose it in a bustoff or the leader gets too short I use a loop to loop .
( very short bimini loop on the PE on a small jig I made for the purpose ).
( in a rush.........a spider hitch & then ease the drag a bit. )

I have been thinking lately of trying a pre-prepared leader on straight hollow and a pre-prepared nail knot on a tube that I heard about...........but I have not got around to testing it .( the nail knot is slipped off the tube to tighten on the end of the hollow to solid join.)............ thinking that might be quicker & higher strength than a bimini & certainly a spiderhitch.
 

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Page Ranking knot becomes popular and the trend will continue until they introduce hollow PE lines.
... The strongest line system that surpasses the other line systems has been developed in Nagasaki. ... The material of the leader that is made of Nylon and Fluorocarbon is monofilament (single line), whereas the main line, PE line, is braided (stranded) line. How to bind these two materials together? ... PE is a bundle of high polymer polyethylene fibers (Dyneema) and it shows the highest strength when each fiber has been applied with the same burden. However, when PE with 2 to 3% of elasticity is combined with a leader, it is really difficult to put even burden on all of the fibers. The main cause of decrease in the strength of line system lies here. It sometimes happens that even the fibers are half-stretched, the other half do not get any burdens at all, and in that case, the strength will be halved as well. Moreover, since high polymer polyethylene is so hard, there is a reason that the material is used as stranded line. If single line, or monofilament, is used, it will easily be broken when it is bent. Less elasticity means it is hard. PE is the line, which cannot be used as a single line, brings the flexibility out by making it thin and combine it together. However, the hardness of the line remains the same even making it thin. The strength of the line decreases dramatically when it is bent. All jiggers know the fact that the line breaks when it has a bump in middle of PE line. The bump caused by a knot on PE line, which is bent at acute angle, breaks rather than snaps. I want you to think that do PE line bent sharply in the existing line systems? ...



Kil, Thank you for finding and translating that description. This is a great explanation of why all knots fail, PE (meaning Gel-Spun polyethylene) especially.

Something that might be missed is the author's note: until they introduce hollow PE lines. He made that note because hollow-weave line manufactured into a spliced leader, transfers all the tension with NO bending of either the Mono/Fluoro or the Spectra/Dyneema braid. This makes splicing the perfect connection technology. Of course there are now many sources for hollow-weave PE lines.

The author also talks about a line system. A good system will have strong components and strong connections, and will not require manufacturing under adverse conditions. Tying a knot, something we take for granted, could also be described as manufacturing a connection. We don't manufacture rods, reels or lines at sea. Why do we want to manufacture connections (often the weak link in our line system) at sea? Many people who responded to your thread pointed out the time that it takes to manufacture a P.R. knot, the skill and the difficulty of doing it at sea.

A spliced end-loop in the mainline can be achieved with hollow-weave line, or with hollow-weave spliced to the end of solid weave. Then a pre-manufactured leader (homemade or purchased), with the terminal tackle already attached, can be single-loop-to-loop connected at sea. This achieves your author's dream: a line system, with no bending of the lines, one that can be pre-manufactured, one that is 100% strong.

When I have some time, I plan to describe a spool to tackle line system that does not in any way reduce the strength of leader or mainline, and is fully repairable. The new skill needed for this system (whether you use hollow-weave or solid-weave) is splicing. Rather than perfecting knots (which always bend the line and weaken it), splicing is the skill that should be learned--many of us have, after 50 years of knotting. It is stronger, thinner, easier and more reliable.

Thanks again for taking the time to post this history, it is very informative.
PF
 
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Open spiral is like the wire in an overstretched tension spring........big gaps between the PE wraps.

Closed spiral is like a guide wrap on a rod each wrap touching the side of its neighbour.

.

OK - yeah I've always done tight first and second passes and havent had a problem even on stiff FC. the double tight wraps seem to hold great. thanks for clarifying :)
 
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