Terminal-Tackle Crimp Strength

Discussion in 'Tackle and Rigging' started by pametfisher, Feb 20, 2010.

  1. John_Madison CT

    John_Madison CT Senior Member

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    Amen to what Roger said on safety. I openned up a few wounds on my hands from breaking leaders. They slice skin like a razor blade.
     
  2. MikeF

    MikeF Senior Member

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    ditto your ditto; I broke a rod in my garage when I was setting my drag due to failure of a bad spool of braid, the rod tip smacked an overhead storage rack. Now I stand on the other side so I'm not near an overhead rack. Anytime you're applying force you have to be prepared for failure. We all learn the hard way but it's makes good stories after we heal.
     

  3. afraser

    afraser Senior Member

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    I'll be very interested to hear how they work out. One thing clear to me from breaking the leaders John sent is that everything has to be right--correct material, size, pressure--in order to get a result that's more reliable than a knot.

    I have been experimenting with a Jansik knot formed on large diameter tackle. The knot strength has been very high. The Jansik is interesting because it can be tied with quite heavy mono.

    Have you tested the other options that have performed well at knot testing competitions? Eg, miller knot, erwin knot, 3 turn uni, trilene, and finally single and double san diego jam knots? The last few years, the winning knots on heavy lines have been either the SD jam or the uni knots. Clearly something to this knot tying thing too :).
     
  4. John_Madison CT

    John_Madison CT Senior Member

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    Maybe we can all inspire Roger to finish up these crimp tests. I can only imagine how time consuming it must be.
     
  5. CMac1019

    CMac1019 Member

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    Great job guys. i usually crimp everything over 80lbs, however i noticed theres no loop protection. ie chafe tube, hydraulic tube. just curious why it wasnt used. i always use it just to be on the safe side but if its not really needed ill save about 20cents. haha..maybe if you used some sort of loop protector the leaders that broke at loop may have a higher bs?
     
  6. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

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    having used tens & tens of thousands of crimped hooks with a variety of loop protectors & tested a few along the way
    ( armour springs, HP nylon tube, chafe tubes & my favorite ........aluminium tube).............The primary role is as a chafe tube.........under heavy load the increase in bend radius is minimal & the influence on UTS is minimal from a chafe tube.............you need to increase the diameter of the bend radius with a ring & grommet to make a significant difference in UTS.

    With some materials used as a chafe tube the UTS results are lower than without the tube as a result of the tube kinking in the bend of the hook eye & reducing the radius of the critical bend.

    The specialised Al chafe tubes resisted kinking the most ( just the right amount of ductility ).

    Not what you might think , without looking at a hundred or so failed loops on commercial longlines ...........every one of them lost dollars that give a great incentive to get the system right...........He He.
     
  7. John_Madison CT

    John_Madison CT Senior Member

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    variable # 999.

    I've wondered about chafe tube myself.
     
  8. johndtuttle

    johndtuttle Senior Member

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    having used tens & tens of thousands of crimped hooks with a variety of loop protectors & tested a few along the way
    ( armour springs, HP nylon tube, chafe tubes & my favorite ........aluminium tube).............The primary role is as a chafe tube.........under heavy load the increase in bend radius is minimal & the influence on UTS is minimal from a chafe tube.............you need to increase the diameter of the bend radius with a ring & grommet to make a significant difference in UTS.

    With some materials used as a chafe tube the UTS results are lower than without the tube as a result of the tube kinking in the bend of the hook eye & reducing the radius of the critical bend.

    The specialised Al chafe tubes resisted kinking the most ( just the right amount of ductility ).

    Not what you might think , without looking at a hundred or so failed loops on commercial longlines ...........every one of them lost dollars that give a great incentive to get the system right...........He He.

    DenisB makes an excellent point that any chafe tube has to be just the right size to add any increase in breaking strength. Radius bend and protection of the mono as it enters the sleeve are essential.

    However, chafe tubes perform a valuable role when merely protecting the loop from the action of lures chafing on their connecting loop or heavy hooks that swing significantly on the end of trolled lures for hours on end (ie trolling rigs for Marlin).

    probably pretty hard to find the perfect chafe tube for each lure you throw (if your crimp straight to the lure) so regular inspection of a plain connection is probably your best bet plus early replacement at the first sign of wear. Save the use of sleeved loops for something that you plan on rigging and leaving rigged for some time to protect it from abrasion over time.
     
  9. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

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    Yep, we have made the point in other terminal tackle discussions that the object of line/pre-leader/leader/lure & hook connections is to address the weakest link situations in the system and maximise the UTS of the system as a whole.
    The leader choice is typically one for abrasion protection & the leader BS is usually the strongest part of the system, by a long way.........in comparison to the drag/tension the angler can apply to the system.

    the choice of leader >lure/hook connection does not need to be one of max strength or abrasion protection per se. It needs to be a join that is slim, secure, and resists creep in what is typically the stiffest material in the system.

    In most cases a join that is 60-70% at the leader 'knot' is not going to be the weakest link in the system & the bend & leader adjacent to the join is going to have a 30-40% advantage over the join strength anyway.

    Maximising the leader.lure/hook join strength becomes the critical weakest link when using light leaders trying to get a strike in a 'pick' bite.

    We can obsess over leader>lure/hook joins ( in isolation ) to the point where the join becomes bulky & reduces strike rate ............is not achieving usable or meaningful system strength gains.............and is counterproductive.

    This thread has focused on crimp strength , component choices, matching components & crimping technique .
    The difficult thing being that you cannot physically see the effectiveness of the join in the crimp by eyeballing .
    The major takehome points being ..........that once you have used compatible components for a given leader & tested your technique to maximise the crimp effectiveness the joins are quick , slim & reliable.
    and
    that the join does not need to be a 100% join...........it just needs to NOT BE the weakest link in the system & preferably have a strength advantage over anything else in the system as it is subjected to shock type loads when the fish is at the boat on a short line.
     
  10. CMac1019

    CMac1019 Member

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    the join does not need to be a 100% join...........it just needs to NOT BE the weakest link in the system & preferably have a strength advantage over anything else in the system as it is subjected to shock type loads when the fish is at the boat on a short line.[/QUOTE]

    Well Said
     
  11. johndtuttle

    johndtuttle Senior Member

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  12. Badfish1

    Badfish1 Senior Member

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    having used tens & tens of thousands of crimped hooks with a variety of loop protectors & tested a few along the way
    ( armour springs, HP nylon tube, chafe tubes & my favorite ........aluminium tube).............The primary role is as a chafe tube.........under heavy load the increase in bend radius is minimal & the influence on UTS is minimal from a chafe tube.............you need to increase the diameter of the bend radius with a ring & grommet to make a significant difference in UTS.

    With some materials used as a chafe tube the UTS results are lower than without the tube as a result of the tube kinking in the bend of the hook eye & reducing the radius of the critical bend.

    The specialised Al chafe tubes resisted kinking the most ( just the right amount of ductility ).

    Not what you might think , without looking at a hundred or so failed loops on commercial longlines ...........every one of them lost dollars that give a great incentive to get the system right...........He He.


    Just revisiting this thread again as it is great information.

    Has anyone tested these same crimping techniques with an offshore loop on the terminal end rather than just a plain loop in the end? I wonder if this gives any added protection against the angle becoming too great around the swivel or hook? I'm not sure it will help against any slipping of the crimp itself but if any of these tests actually broke the loop due to making the bend too sharp, I'm wondering if this may help? Almost along the lines of putting some type of chaffing material on?


    Thanks,

    Joe
     
  13. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

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    Just revisiting this thread again as it is great information.

    Has anyone tested these same crimping techniques with an offshore loop on the terminal end rather than just a plain loop in the end?

    Joe;
    when you say "offshore loop"..............are you referring to a 'flemish eye'
    ie
    doubled loop & twisted...........then crimped.

    not familiar with the term 'offshore loop'.
     
  14. Badfish1

    Badfish1 Senior Member

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    Joe;
    when you say "offshore loop"..............are you referring to a 'flemish eye'
    ie
    doubled loop & twisted...........then crimped.

    not familiar with the term 'offshore loop'.

    Something like this Denis. I usually go through twice to make the loop. These are random pics I found directly to hooks on the internet, but using this same idea on swivels. Was wondering if this would help the chaffing or breaking strength any?

    Thanks,

    Joe
     

    Attached Files:

  15. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

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    Yep
    "Flemish Eye"

    - helps with the abrasion , chafing & kink resistance at the eye of the hook.
    basically with the twisted loop you have half the tension in each strand.
    - helps a bit with reducing tension in the tag end where the sleeve is "undercrimped", to reduce slipping. also where a shorter than optimal sleeve is used............for the same reason.
    - doesn't help improve join UTS where the sleeve is 'overcrimped' as the deformed line in the crimp is the weakest link.


    - it comes at the price of higher visibility & bulk of the hook attachment.
    - hook eye size in the hook of choice limits leader size that is viable for using a "flemish eye" in the loop.
    care required to ensure the 'flemish eye' has good clearance on the hook eye to prevent the hook 'hanging up' at an odd angle on the twisted leader loop.

    FWIW IME
    1.
    It depends on the rigging application, but a single loop with a loop sleeve is typically slimmer than a flemish eye loop...........where bulk of the hook attachment is an issue.
    The downside of sleeving the loop is that care is required in the choice of sleeve such that the sleeve tube does not kink & increase the line angle inside the hook eye under tension.
    2.
    Armour springs or branded aluminium leader sleeves conform extremely well to the radius of the inside of the hook eye without kinking & provide better abrasion resistance in the loop than other methods.
    More visible , but present basically as a longer shanked hook.
     
  16. Badfish1

    Badfish1 Senior Member

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    Thanks for the info Denis!
     
  17. waterman482

    waterman482 Senior Member

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    Go on a sword and tuna longlining trip for 20 days or so and you will have a new respect and admiration for crimp strength!
     
  18. No Bail

    No Bail Member

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    I'm just curious, were the ends of the mono heated to make a bulbous end? This is my practice and I'm wondering if it helps or hurts.
     
  19. John_Madison CT

    John_Madison CT Senior Member

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    No Bail: Just catching up on this. No, I didn't bulb the end of the line before crimping.

    My goal was to try and study certain variables of crimping. After we found what we considered the best crimp for a particular line, I would then try to make the tag end bulbous and see if that helps in the line slipping.

    John
     
  20. MikeF

    MikeF Senior Member

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    After 8 pages it still comes back to the same point. You have to use the correct size and material crimp for the leader and you have to use the correct tool. Mixing and matching is what screws them up.
     
  21. marc77

    marc77 Junior member

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    If anyone would like some more information regarding the making of crimp connections, please read my post located on page 6 of the "Crimping Tools" thread under the Jigging and Popping section.

    I am a new member and I did not notice this thread until after I wrote my post. I should have posted it here.
     
  22. marc77

    marc77 Junior member

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    Roger:

    The crimp connections that I make with my cheap $ 30 hand crimper are 100% connections. They are actually stronger than the line itself. When pulled apart to failure, the line breaks before the connection does. In other words, the line does not break at or within the connection, but somewhere else, away from the connection. I have been making these connections for years. It is very simple to do.

    If you would like to test them, please state your address and I will send you some and you can post your test results.

    The lines I presently use are 60, 80, 100 and 130 Momoi. They are all 100% crimp connections.

    In the past, I also used 80 Ande, 125 Berkley Big Game and 80 Izorline. (However, I have not used these lines in many years and now I do not remember whether I perfected the crimp connections on these lines to 100%, but they must have been pretty close.)