Terminal-Tackle Crimp Strength

Discussion in 'Tackle and Rigging' started by pametfisher, Feb 20, 2010.

  1. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

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    Outcast raises a valid point
    But
    repetitive load cycling examines creep . KBS examines UTS and you are correct in your concern where the creep testing load exceeds the elastic deformation range of the mono.
    The question becomes at what load should creep testing be undertaken.
    In my case I adopt a protocol of 150% of intended max drag, which is well within the elastic deformation range.
    KBS testing is undertaken in a single incremental ascending load cycle on a previously untested sample.
    ie the two tests are independent.

    Re Braid ratcheting crimpers:
    Yes, very reproducable crimping pressure, but tuning is limited to line size choice & crimp choice, without engineering modification.
    ( we have already discussed the impact of line size within crimp range, so the potential issues are clear and the limitations on optimisation obvious).

    Re Jinkai SC-3 crimpers ( & other products similarly adjustable )
    Within a line size & crimp choice they are adjustable for optimal results, but once that is set it is optimal for that setup & that die hole alone. Not necessarily optimal with another line size, crimp & other die hole.

    sure, you can adjust the tool to suit another combination, but any concept of doing that on the fly is an exercise in futility without testing the adjustment again.
    If you want reliable crimping with these types of tools you need to set them up for a single line & crimp combination, lock the adjustment down & use it for that combination.
    If you use a range of leader sizes , for reliability at optimum join strength, you should buy another SC-3 or similar & set it up for that Job............a one time investment of $30 or so for the specific job you intend to use it for.

    Which type of tool is desirable depends entirely on whether your choice of line has a compatible crimp for optimal KBS in the fixed OEM setup of the Braid ratcheting crimper.
    The Jinkai SC-# is more user-friendly in adjustment.........as is another similar Braid hand crimper.

    The test series will be very useful in identifying those combinations of line size & crimp brand which produce optimal results in the Braid ratcheting crimper & those which are probably optimised in a different tool.

    What we can expect to see is that the Braid ratcheting crimper will perform below par on line sizes at the low end of the line size spec per crimp size, where a thicker wall crimp cannot be matched to it...........IMHO.

    My thoughts on the test series remains as prev stated. It needs to focus on a particular leader size & brand & see what combinations achieve optimal KBS
    i) by swapping crimp brands in John's crimper.
    ii) by using a pressure adjustable tool & seeing whether further improvement can be achieved.
     
  2. Locke N Load

    Locke N Load Wannabe Tuna Fisherman

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    Fantastic testing gentlemen.
    Roger, have you ever done a long duration test near a known ABS? As we know, most fights don't take just a few minutes. I wonder if a prolonged hanging of 90% of the weight to break a line would cause it to fail?

    Definitely a lot of useful information. Now that I am done with the Bar exam I can get to the important stuff. Breaking/testing gear. :)
     

  3. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

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    LnL
    the short answer is yes it will............as the ABS is inevitably higher than the elastic deformation limit of the leader. So at 90% ABS it is in the plastic deformation range & it keeps on deforming slowly at 90% ABS till it eventually fails.
    A simple hanging test at virtually anywhere above 70-75% ABS will produce the same result, the lower tension just takes longer hanging time to deform enough to fail

    The better question might be tho:-

    What is the impact of prolonged tension at your max sustained line tension.
    The answer depends on your leader size.
    in the vast majority of cases the leader is far heavier than the line tension you can sustain & the effort you can sustain is down in the area of elastic deformation so there is no plastic deformation causing permanent & continuing line diameter shrinkage and loss of viability of the crimp.
    Failure of the leader will come from abrasion, teeth cuts & nicks etc in the leader, rarely from thinning of the line from plastic deformation or failure of the crimp ( at the line tensions you can sustain in a prolonged fight ..................even a short fight ), provided you have set up your crimping optimally.

    The applicable rule of thumb is mono line size 3 times your line tension
    (drag) level is pretty reliable within the elastic deformation range of Mono & Fluoro. Most leaders are operating in the range of 1/5 - 1/7 of ABS with a significant safety margin within the elastic deformation range ........... so failure from plastic deformation ( causing line thinning ) in a sustained fight is pretty unlikely.
    IMHO
     
  4. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Just tested and added another crimp configuration (still 3 to go). This one is at the beginning of the thread on page 1, the fourth post in the thread, labeled: Bill Fisher 1.00 mm Copper Double Barrel

    As you will see if you check out the results. You do need the right crimp for the line, and this wasn't it!
     
  5. John_Madison CT

    John_Madison CT Senior Member

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    Very interesting Roger. As you will see in the packages I send, there is another pack where I use the same line and same crimp, but used a larger crimp hole on the Braid crimper.

    Basically it means I crimped with less pressure. Curious how this turns out.

    Any chance you can take close up pics of the differences between the two. If I remember correctly it was quite noticeable to the naked eye.

    BTW, I'm very impressed at the reproduceability of the results.
     
  6. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Very interesting Roger. As you will see in the packages I send, there is another pack where I use the same line and same crimp, but used a larger crimp hole on the Braid crimper.

    Basically it means I crimped with less pressure. Curious how this turns out.

    Any chance you can take close up pics of the differences between the two. If I remember correctly it was quite noticeable to the naked eye.

    BTW, I'm very impressed at the reproduceability of the results.

    Hi John,

    I'm just about to post #4 which is the same as #3 but with less crimping pressure. The results were even worse. :(
     
  7. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    The fourth set of results are posted on page 1. In this case crimp and crimp pressure were mismatched for the line and the crimps all slipped at a low 46 lbs. or lower.

    John has done a great job giving me so many (too many!) cases to test.
     
  8. OutCast

    OutCast Senior Member

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    The undercompressed #'s look like what you could get with a well tied knot(not knowing the ABS). I wouldn't have tried the BF crimps w/ that line diameter. Better to have closer numbers with different brands. 1-100th or less IMO is workable w/ a hand crimper.

    Newbie to crimping question, is each sleeve swaged seperately when using double barrels or is there a crimper that will do both at the same time w/ equal pressure.
     
  9. John_Madison CT

    John_Madison CT Senior Member

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    I think we've learned that the 1.00mm Double Barrel crimp just isn't the right crimp to use with this line.

    I bet the other lines with this crimp also prove poor.
     
  10. Grandpa21

    Grandpa21 Senior Member

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    Usually tying single and double uni's for my terminal connections, but hearing favorable results from everyone I have spoken with or read about that crimps their terminal connections I decided to give it a try. I purchased a Jinkai SC-3 today so I could play too :) along with some Jinkai "I" crimps and Jinkai #150 leader. Leaving the SC-3 at the factory "stopper" setting and using the middle hole we got favorable results just doing some non-scientific ghetto backyard straight pull and cycle testing with gloved hands, a swivel, screw driver, and thick dowel. We did the same testing with the knots we had been previously using and the crimp won hands down. In the days to come I plan on doing some more scientifically controlled testing as well in order to get some real data, but from the results today I think I'm becoming a fan of the crimp!

    I would be curious if anyone in the 360 family has a high def slow motion camera that could actually capture the deformation and failure of not only crimped connections but knots as well? I think it would be cool to watch how these connections deform in super slow motion!!!
     
  11. Grandpa21

    Grandpa21 Senior Member

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    Like stated in the previous post I was a bit more interested in what results I could achieve with a bit more controlled testing. (This is a work in progress). Sorry Pamet not trying to jack your thread...just trying to keep similar info in same place.


    Leader: Jinkai #130 (Advertised BS)
    Crimp: Jinkai "I"
    Crimping Tool: Jinkai SC-3
    Method: Dead lift w/ disc weights


    Testing Rig/Proceedure: One foot 1" Dia metal rod wrapped in duct tape. Wrapped extra leader approx 10 times around rod. Other end was crimped to a ~250 lb welded ring/swivel. Both lines entering top of crimp were marked with sharpie (for slippage indication). Leather gloves, long sleeves, safety glasses.

    Trial #1-2: Crimp Pressure=Closed jaws on middle hole of SC-3.

    Trial #1:weight=100lb Result: No slip. Crimp Held. (repeated 3x)
    Trial #2: weight=115lb Result: Slipped. Closed Loop and cut into mono after loop cinched totally closed. (repeated 2x)

    [​IMG]

    Trial #3-4: Crimp Pressure=Closed jaws on middle hole of SC-3. Then used smallest hole/setting on SC-3 till jaws closed.

    Trial #3: weight=115lb Result: Minor slip. Crimp held. no break or continuing slip. (repeated 3x)

    Trial #4: weight=120lb Result: Slipped. Broke and smacked in the face with crimp and or line leaving welt across lower and upper lip! (NOT REPEATED!...(yet)..haha). Could not retrieve broken section so sorry no pics.

    Trial #5: Dales Pale Ale. (Repeated till stinging subsided)

    Preliminary Conclusion: I just started crimping yesterday so I am by no means an expert. I'm very happy so far with these results because I like to pre-rig all my windons with swivels to minimize rigging and leader change out time on the water. I'm confident I will never put anywhere close to 120lb of pressure on a fish. Not to mention I'm fishing with only 60-70lb braid. I'm still going to run some more tests and post my results with lower test (#80 and #100) samples but I need to get the proper sized crimps.

    Note: A welding helmet or face mask of some kind in addition to safety glasses would not be a bad idea!
     
    Eoin likes this.
  12. chf1949

    chf1949 Senior Member

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    Note: A welding helmet or face mask of some kind in addition to safety glasses would not be a bad idea!
    Wood turners often use a clear face shield to protect from flying objects while turning pieces. You might want to check with a local woodworker/tool supply store. Not too expensive either.
     
  13. John_Madison CT

    John_Madison CT Senior Member

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    Grandpa21: Good work. I'm fairly sure Jinkai breaks at close to it's rated lb. test, but it would be nice to know that so you can get a gauge of crimping vs. ABS.
     
  14. jordanis3r

    jordanis3r Senior Member

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    Good thread guys - I have some special 200lb leaders made up by Roger for a GT trip - planning on crimping the loop end rather than tie a swivel ...

    Will let you guys know the results - using a Billfisher hand crimping tool and copper double barrels matched to the line dia.
     
  15. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

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    Jordanis3r

    strongly suggest you read the posts in the thread again regarding copper sleeves and the risks associated with using them.

    Aluminium sleeves are the recommended material for mono/fluro leaders as the hardness of the sleeve better matches the hardness of the line & over crimping does not excessively damage the line inside the crimp.

    Copper is significantly harder than the leader material and crimping pressure in its use on mono etc is absolutely critical with no room for error............
    either under pressured or over pressured ............to achieve adequate results.

    Copper sleeves are optimal for wire leaders ............where the copper cannot damage the wire it is being crimped onto.

    Its not that copper cannot be used on mono etc..............its just incredibly more critical to get crimping pressure exactly right for optimal success.
    The equipment & technique used in crimping is just not repeatable enough in control to regard the results with copper sleeves as reliable. IMO.
     
  16. johndtuttle

    johndtuttle Senior Member

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    Like stated in the previous post I was a bit more interested in what results I could achieve with a bit more controlled testing. (This is a work in progress). Sorry Pamet not trying to jack your thread...just trying to keep similar info in same place.


    Leader: Jinkai #130 (Advertised BS)
    Crimp: Jinkai "I"
    Crimping Tool: Jinkai SC-3
    Method: Dead lift w/ disc weights


    Testing Rig/Proceedure: One foot 1" Dia metal rod wrapped in duct tape. Wrapped extra leader approx 10 times around rod. Other end was crimped to a ~250 lb welded ring/swivel. Both lines entering top of crimp were marked with sharpie (for slippage indication). Leather gloves, long sleeves, safety glasses.

    Trial #1-2: Crimp Pressure=Closed jaws on middle hole of SC-3.

    Trial #1:weight=100lb Result: No slip. Crimp Held. (repeated 3x)
    Trial #2: weight=115lb Result: Slipped. Closed Loop and cut into mono after loop cinched totally closed. (repeated 2x)

    [​IMG]

    Trial #3-4: Crimp Pressure=Closed jaws on middle hole of SC-3. Then used smallest hole/setting on SC-3 till jaws closed.

    Trial #3: weight=115lb Result: Minor slip. Crimp held. no break or continuing slip. (repeated 3x)

    Trial #4: weight=120lb Result: Slipped. Broke and smacked in the face with crimp and or line leaving welt across lower and upper lip! (NOT REPEATED!...(yet)..haha). Could not retrieve broken section so sorry no pics.

    Trial #5: Dales Pale Ale. (Repeated till stinging subsided)

    Preliminary Conclusion: I just started crimping yesterday so I am by no means an expert. I'm very happy so far with these results because I like to pre-rig all my windons with swivels to minimize rigging and leader change out time on the water. I'm confident I will never put anywhere close to 120lb of pressure on a fish. Not to mention I'm fishing with only 60-70lb braid. I'm still going to run some more tests and post my results with lower test (#80 and #100) samples but I need to get the proper sized crimps.

    Note: A welding helmet or face mask of some kind in addition to safety glasses would not be a bad idea!

    Looking at your connections those are over crimped from using the too large "I" sleeve. You can just barely get most 130# into the Jinkai "J" sleeve which is exactly what you want. Ideally with proper pressure you then will get a more consistent connection due to the more ideal interaction between line and aluminum sleeve. When testing mine I sometimes break the line outside of the sleeve the connection is so good.

    give it a try, just 2 cents worth.
     
  17. jordanis3r

    jordanis3r Senior Member

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    Good point - just ordering some Momoi alu crimps - all I can get on short notice here in the UK ...
     
  18. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Good point - just ordering some Momoi alu crimps - all I can get on short notice here in the UK ...


    I'll be very interested to hear how they work out. One thing clear to me from breaking the leaders John sent is that everything has to be right--correct material, size, pressure--in order to get a result that's more reliable than a knot.

    I have been experimenting with a Jansik knot formed on large diameter tackle. The knot strength has been very high. The Jansik is interesting because it can be tied with quite heavy mono.
     
  19. jordanis3r

    jordanis3r Senior Member

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    Hi Roger - just googled it - looks fairly simple to tie what sort of results are you getting?
     
  20. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Like stated in the previous post I was a bit more interested in what results I could achieve with a bit more controlled testing. (This is a work in progress). Sorry Pamet not trying to jack your thread...just trying to keep similar info in same place.


    Leader: Jinkai #130 (Advertised BS)
    Crimp: Jinkai "I"
    Crimping Tool: Jinkai SC-3
    Method: Dead lift w/ disc weights


    Testing Rig/Proceedure: One foot 1" Dia metal rod wrapped in duct tape. Wrapped extra leader approx 10 times around rod. Other end was crimped to a ~250 lb welded ring/swivel. Both lines entering top of crimp were marked with sharpie (for slippage indication). Leather gloves, long sleeves, safety glasses.

    Trial #1-2: Crimp Pressure=Closed jaws on middle hole of SC-3.

    Trial #1:weight=100lb Result: No slip. Crimp Held. (repeated 3x)
    Trial #2: weight=115lb Result: Slipped. Closed Loop and cut into mono after loop cinched totally closed. (repeated 2x)

    [​IMG]

    Trial #3-4: Crimp Pressure=Closed jaws on middle hole of SC-3. Then used smallest hole/setting on SC-3 till jaws closed.

    Trial #3: weight=115lb Result: Minor slip. Crimp held. no break or continuing slip. (repeated 3x)

    Trial #4: weight=120lb Result: Slipped. Broke and smacked in the face with crimp and or line leaving welt across lower and upper lip! (NOT REPEATED!...(yet)..haha). Could not retrieve broken section so sorry no pics.

    Trial #5: Dales Pale Ale. (Repeated till stinging subsided)

    Preliminary Conclusion: I just started crimping yesterday so I am by no means an expert. I'm very happy so far with these results because I like to pre-rig all my windons with swivels to minimize rigging and leader change out time on the water. I'm confident I will never put anywhere close to 120lb of pressure on a fish. Not to mention I'm fishing with only 60-70lb braid. I'm still going to run some more tests and post my results with lower test (#80 and #100) samples but I need to get the proper sized crimps.

    Note: A welding helmet or face mask of some kind in addition to safety glasses would not be a bad idea!

    Grandpa21,

    Excellent systematic work. We will all learn from these results. From the testing I've done so far we can see the importance of getting the setup correct for the particular line involved.

    Safety is a key issue when you're breaking mono or fluoro. The energy released when you break line is VERY dangerous. I've found too many ways to cut and bruise myself and shred otherwise good clothing. In addition to safety glasses, gloves, heaving clothing and a protective mask, try to keep the piece that you're breaking short. I pretty much limit the stretch area to 6-12". That way when it breaks and release 120 lbs. of force in an instant, the bull-whip isn't that long.

    PF