Teach me this knot

Discussion in 'Tackle and Rigging' started by explorer, Feb 5, 2020.

  1. explorer

    explorer Member

    625
    167
    Hi ALL,
    One of the local tackle store in Asia spool up my reels for me with backing and when I unspool it I found this knot. I normally use Uni to Uni Splice knot (from PowerPro Site) but want to know what is this connection call? Link please if you know:)?
    Green is the backing, orange is my main line (if that matters)
    808C6650-4E40-42F4-AE6F-2173D678DB80.png
     
  2. iyaman

    iyaman Senior Member

    904
    306
    PR knot I think
     

  3. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

    5,659
    762
    Looks like a "too much trouble" knot
     
    mag0121, Cubeye, explorer and 3 others like this.
  4. Kim

    Kim Senior Member Supporting Member

    1,969
    836
    That may be a PR Knot with a twist since the PR Knot is from braid to monofilament or fluorocarbon leader and not braid to braid. The photo of Jiggingnuts PR Knot looks as good as it gets.

    JiggingnutsPRknot.jpg
     
    iyaman and explorer like this.
  5. Stevo

    Stevo Well-Known Member

    256
    169
    That thing looks sexy. Just a question since I never tied a PR knot before ( FG has been good to me): does it need to be that long? Can you do it with fewer twists and still keep functional integrity of the knot?
     
  6. Kim

    Kim Senior Member Supporting Member

    1,969
    836
    That pic is blown up for detail so the knot isn't as long as it looks like in the pic. Jiggingnut tied it so he can chime in.
     
  7. Kipi

    Kipi Well-Known Member

    212
    134
    Looks like a crazy long PR... Pointless IMHO. 2" to 3" is more than enough.
     
    Gonefishings, iyaman and brn2surf1000 like this.
  8. north coast

    north coast Senior Member

    3,567
    899
    I’ve been tying the PR knot since I learned it - here- :) around 2009-2010. I have a boat and I fish my face off.
    the point, I tie a shit ton of knots.
    I have tied nothing but the PR knot for all mono or fluoro, to braid connections since I learned it.

    I HAVE YET TO HAVE ONE FAIL!

    I have purposely caused one to fail in experimenting with just how short you can make the knot without comprising its integrity or reliability.
    You would probably be surprised just how short you can make these knots, especially with lighter braid.

    I use the knot for everything from scup and black sesbass to bluefin tuna and everything in between.

    You do not need an expensive bobbin to tie the knot. An aluminum or steel spool of some sort( I made my own)
    And a 4 dollar fly tying bobbin from amazon or eBay is every bit as good for a successful knot as a fancy $99.
    Model.
    The knot is supposed to be 100% of its breaking strength.I’d guess that the knot itself is more. Every time I have had to break off, the line will part somewhere other than at the knot.
    It also glides through the guides like it is not even there.

    The misguided thought that this is a difficult knot to tie and the bobbin scare people away from this knot.
    Once you do a few, the knot becomes very simple to tie. I can spin one out in seconds.
    Don’t let thinking that this is a difficult knot to tie scare you away from the best knot, for its purpose, out there.

    The knot is a valuable addition to your arsenal, learn it ! I cannot see any reason to use anything else.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  9. Stevo

    Stevo Well-Known Member

    256
    169
    I will give you 2 exact situations and ask for you opinion: how many times would you spin it for tying 50lb spectra to 60 lb fluoro and 65 spectra to 80 lb fluoro? What the recommended dimension at the end ? Would it be similar to an FG knot in size ? Would the PR have less resistance through the guides compared to a good tied FG?
     
  10. iyaman

    iyaman Senior Member

    904
    306
    I'll let NC answer that. I'm a FG knot guy. But RCW has been convincing me to use PR knot instead. I might give it a try.
     
  11. north coast

    north coast Senior Member

    3,567
    899
    C33125D0-9E56-4156-8EA0-3418968DF117.jpeg BFE4BDB6-90BE-4845-8BC8-D080671CBFBA.jpeg Here’s a few bobbins and spools I made.
    I’ve probably tied hundreds of PR knots with these. Crude and simple but tie just as good a knot as a $75.bobbin will.
     
    Cubeye and Gonefishings like this.
  12. north coast

    north coast Senior Member

    3,567
    899
     
  13. north coast

    north coast Senior Member

    3,567
    899
    I don’t count so I have no idea how many revolutions the bobbin makes per knot but my average and most common knot is tied with 40 lb braid and 20 lb fluoro or 40 lb mono.
    Most knots average around an inch to inch and a half in length.

    If I’m chasing tuna I may make them a bit longer. Just because, well,tuna will bust anything and everything. :)
    Hope that helps.


    Here’s a decent video of pretty much how I tie them.
    I actually make my knots close to half the length that this gentleman did.

    Experiment a little, you’ll decide on a length that you’re comfortable with and eventually they will all be tied relatively
    The same size, without really having to think about it.
    As to windage, going through the guides etc. for me it’s like the knot is not there.
    I don’t believe there is a knot out there as sleek and un-noticeable as this one.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
    Cubeye, explorer, Stevo and 1 other person like this.
  14. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

    5,659
    762
    I've used a bunch of both PR & FG. Both my PR bobbin & my FG knotter jig are DIY.
    Strengthwise there is not much between either knot.
    Castingwise the FG is MUCH more reliable passing thru the guides & is slimmer.
    FG is much easier to reliably tie on a rocking boat.

    BUT
    this thread is about spectra to spectra joins
    neither FG nor PR has anything to particularly recommend it for tying spectra together. The issues being very low elasticity of either line & very low friction.
    both PR & FG rely on friction to loadshare & get their strength............they both rely on the braid knotform to bite into the elastic mono/fluoro in the middle. ( the only difference being that the PR preferrentially loads the inner twisted wraps before the outer, whereas FG loads the braided wraps more evenly & more efficiently applies fingercuff compression to the mono/fluoro core ).

    I'm sure there will be some readers who compare a PR knotform to a Bimini & they are right in that the twisted form is essentially the same............the difference is a Bimini loads all 3 legs of the knotform evenly............the PR loads from one leg ( & generates more shearforces)............just because they look the same doesn't mean they work the same.

    When using them spectra-spectra the knotform needs to be very long to generate sufficient friction ...................because of the very low friction values & the very low elasticity.
    ( When using them spectra-mono/fluoro the knotform can be short as 100% loadsharing in the knotform can occur in a much shorter length due to higher friction........ its up to the knot tier as to how much safety margin they tie their knot with.)


    Spectra-spectra joins firstly rely on a jam knot principle..........a knob of one line jamming against a knob of the other line in the join..............the simplest version being a uni to uni ..........and more complex versions providing better loadsharing with less shearforces in the knob than a uni can provide by using a different knotform.

    looking at the OP knot image we appear to have a 5 turn uni in the grey larger diameter backing knob & what looks like a long PR in the orange mainline. The orange mainline passes thru the centre of the grey uni & the grey backing passes thru the centre of the orange PR ( or what looks like a PR ). The ultimate safety is that the uni jams against the PR & the shearforces in the knotform are the same as any other jam knot if that occurs.
    The uni in the backing does not provide much friction on the orange mainline .
    to prevent the 2 knots jamming together as a conventional jamknot the join in the OP relies on the PR knotform of the orange mainline to stop the grey backing slipping thru & the whole knot functioning as a jamknot whose weakest point is the transition of the single lines into the knotform of the respective knobs jamming together.

    There is a LOT of work in constructing this knot as a highstrength spectra-spectra join reliably
    As above..........this is one of a group of knots I call "too much trouble" knots

    If I am being pedantic about highstrength spectra-spectra joins is is very hard to get better reliability than a bimini twist double in each line & a simple uni-uni join of the 2 doubles. I prefer a short double to the uni than alternatives like long doubles with a catspaw L2L
    The weakpoint in these joins is the double not the uni & the double is a very reliable highstrength knot................the advantage of this type of double-double spectra join is that its far more flexible than a single long complex knot...........which is inevitably comparatively stiff.

    FWIW
     
  15. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

    5,659
    762
    Re: PR vid from NC post above ( #13).
    this is an excellent vid of good technique.
    The key element of the knotform is an open spiral of the inner wrap & a closed spiral of the outer wrap............too many vids fail to establish the different spiral forms of the inner & outer wraps.
    Note also that when the initial outer wraps pause & the lines are extended the braid becomes parallel to the mono............this is important as the outer wraps incorporate that section into the overall knotform.
    It is the braid mainline that enters the knot at that point & load enters the knotform at that point constructing the inner layer of the PR at mainline entry into the knot from parallel to open spiral to a short section of closed spiral & then overwrapping with a closed spiral generates a knotform with minimised shearforces in the mainline braid as it enters the knotform & commences loadsharing between mainline & leader.
     
    Cubeye, kellerman2006, Kipi and 2 others like this.
  16. Kipi

    Kipi Well-Known Member

    212
    134
    Definitely one of the best PR demos I've seen
     
  17. Texas Rodsmith

    Texas Rodsmith Active Member

    59
    13
    I have been curious about using the pr not, for a little while. Have you ever used an FG knot? If so, how does it compare? As far as ease of tying.
     
  18. a1flyfishr

    a1flyfishr Retired Member Supporting Member

    4,307
    1,056
    Both knots are easy once you’ve done them for awhile. But I think the FG is quicker. i use the PR almost always. I always tie all my PR knots before my trips, and if I need to tie in another leader on the boat I’ll go with the FG only because you don’t need to use a bobbin. IMO the FG is slightly thinner and a little quicker than the PR knot. Never had either one fail and would suggest go with the one that comes easier for you to tie.

    Benny
     
    Kim and Cubeye like this.
  19. Texas Rodsmith

    Texas Rodsmith Active Member

    59
    13
    I've been using the FG knot, for about five years. I've never had the knot fail. The way the PR knot is whipped at the end, it look like it would just run through the guides a little smoother then the rizzotto finish that I put on the FG knot. I appreciate you taking the time to respond, in such detail.
     
  20. PharmDoc

    PharmDoc Junior member

    32
    19
    Good demo! Nice instruction

    buuuut...16 half hitches?? Then a rizutto finish? Holy crap, by the time your great grandkids are born, you’re ready to take them fishing.
    It’s the wraps and tension that makes the knot strength. The finish is just that; a finish so that the knot doesn’t unravel after multiple hundred trips thru the guides. I’d say 3-4 hirches and a rizutto is plenty.