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I read a post by DenisB were he talked about a 100% strength solid to hollow braid connection, so I went to the garage and started testing. I tested 50# solid Izorline braid to 60# hollow JB. The method of connection is a modified nub connection, that is described below. This connection tested at 100% strength in 4 samples and 90% in one. That was through 30 cycles dead lifting 40lbs, 10 cycles lifting 45lbs, and 10 cycles lifting 50 lbs. I am not as detailed as Pametfisher, and a lot of testing still needs to be done, but this seems like a very strong connection.

Materials needed: 30# solid uncoated braid, ca glue, sewing needle, loop puller.

Method:
Start with 2' of 30# braid and tie a 5 turn uni knot over the 50# solid mainline, about 12" from the tag end, and snug tight. Thread the tag end of the 30# through the needle and insert the needle into the mainline adjacent to the uni knot you just made. Now pull the 30# through the mainline. Remove the 30# braid from the needle and tie another 5 turn uni knot. Snug it up tight to the edge of the first uni knot. Do the same thing on the other side of the first uni knot. Trim both tags leaving 1/4".

To summarize at this point you have a uni knot on the mainline, you have threaded the tag ends of the uni knot through the mainline spectra, and have tied uni knots at both ends of the first uni knot, for a total of 3 uni knots. The uni knots should be butting up against one another. This sounds complicated, but I can do it in under one minute. This has created a rock solid nub on the mainline.

Then you pull the mainline with the nub into the hollow spectra using a loop puller, and work the end of the hollow spectra over and past the nub on the mainline by about 2". Smooth the hollow over the solid and the nub knot tightly. Using the 30# braid, tie a nail knot on top of the the hollow spectra, adjacent to the nub, on the reel side. Tighten it TIGHT, until the nail knot turns translucent. Put a little glue on the nubs, and you are ready to go.

While not exactly easy, it is relatively simple to do, very small, and quick enough to do while fishing, especially if you have hollow spectra prepped and ready with a pull wire and a nail knot on a tube. I can do this entire process in less than 2 minutes.

I take no credit for this as others have already done the leg work, and invite suggestions to make this a stronger or faster connection. I apologize if this has been previously discussed.
 

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I read a post by DenisB were he talked about a 100% strength solid to hollow braid connection, so I went to the garage and started testing. I tested 50# solid Izorline braid to 60# hollow JB. The method of connection is a modified nub connection, that is described below. This connection tested at 100% strength in 4 samples and 90% in one. That was through 30 cycles dead lifting 40lbs, 10 cycles lifting 45lbs, and 10 cycles lifting 50 lbs. I am not as detailed as Pametfisher, and a lot of testing still needs to be done, but this seems like a very strong connection.

Materials needed: 30# solid uncoated braid, ca glue, sewing needle, loop puller.

Method:
Start with 2' of 30# braid and tie a 5 turn uni knot over the 50# solid mainline, about 12" from the tag end, and snug tight. Thread the tag end of the 30# through the needle and insert the needle into the mainline adjacent to the uni knot you just made. Now pull the 30# through the mainline. Remove the 30# braid from the needle and tie another 5 turn uni knot. Snug it up tight to the edge of the first uni knot. Do the same thing on the other side of the first uni knot. Trim both tags leaving 1/4".

To summarize at this point you have a uni knot on the mainline, you have threaded the tag ends of the uni knot through the mainline spectra, and have tied uni knots at both ends of the first uni knot, for a total of 3 uni knots. The uni knots should be butting up against one another. This sounds complicated, but I can do it in under one minute. This has created a rock solid nub on the mainline.

Then you pull the mainline with the nub into the hollow spectra using a loop puller, and work the end of the hollow spectra over and past the nub on the mainline by about 2". Smooth the hollow over the solid and the nub knot tightly. Using the 30# braid, tie a nail knot on top of the the hollow spectra, adjacent to the nub, on the reel side. Tighten it TIGHT, until the nail knot turns translucent. Put a little glue on the nubs, and you are ready to go.

While not exactly easy, it is relatively simple to do, very small, and quick enough to do while fishing, especially if you have hollow spectra prepped and ready with a pull wire and a nail knot on a tube. I can do this entire process in less than 2 minutes.

I take no credit for this as others have already done the leg work, and invite suggestions to make this a stronger or faster connection. I apologize if this has been previously discussed.

Let me think about your method and get back to you.

Here's a link to the method I wrote about earlier this year:

http://www.360tuna.com/forum/f3/glueless-solid-hollow-spectra-splice-full-strength-4389/
 

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I read a post by DenisB were he talked about a 100% strength solid to hollow braid connection, so I went to the garage and started testing. I tested 50# solid Izorline braid to 60# hollow JB. The method of connection is a modified nub connection, that is described below. This connection tested at 100% strength in 4 samples and 90% in one. That was through 30 cycles dead lifting 40lbs, 10 cycles lifting 45lbs, and 10 cycles lifting 50 lbs. I am not as detailed as Pametfisher, and a lot of testing still needs to be done, but this seems like a very strong connection.

Materials needed: 30# solid uncoated braid, ca glue, sewing needle, loop puller.

Method:
Start with 2' of 30# braid and tie a 5 turn uni knot over the 50# solid mainline, about 12" from the tag end, and snug tight. Thread the tag end of the 30# through the needle and insert the needle into the mainline adjacent to the uni knot you just made. Now pull the 30# through the mainline. Remove the 30# braid from the needle and tie another 5 turn uni knot. Snug it up tight to the edge of the first uni knot. Do the same thing on the other side of the first uni knot. Trim both tags leaving 1/4".

To summarize at this point you have a uni knot on the mainline, you have threaded the tag ends of the uni knot through the mainline spectra, and have tied uni knots at both ends of the first uni knot, for a total of 3 uni knots. The uni knots should be butting up against one another. This sounds complicated, but I can do it in under one minute. This has created a rock solid nub on the mainline.

Then you pull the mainline with the nub into the hollow spectra using a loop puller, and work the end of the hollow spectra over and past the nub on the mainline by about 2". Smooth the hollow over the solid and the nub knot tightly. Using the 30# braid, tie a nail knot on top of the the hollow spectra, adjacent to the nub, on the reel side. Tighten it TIGHT, until the nail knot turns translucent. Put a little glue on the nubs, and you are ready to go.

While not exactly easy, it is relatively simple to do, very small, and quick enough to do while fishing, especially if you have hollow spectra prepped and ready with a pull wire and a nail knot on a tube. I can do this entire process in less than 2 minutes.

I take no credit for this as others have already done the leg work, and invite suggestions to make this a stronger or faster connection. I apologize if this has been previously discussed.

First, let me compliment you on a novel, innovative connection method. I really feel that efforts like yours and mine to design solutions to bring hollow-weave spectra/dyneema to fishing will pay large dividends.

In my design, http://www.360tuna.com/forum/f3/glueless-solid-hollow-spectra-splice-full-strength-4389/, the holding force is splice friction.

In your design, the holding force is friction between your final uni and the hollow spectra, the first three Unis and the solid spectra, and the physical block of the two to each other. In concept, your design has no stress concentration from bending of either the mainline or the hollow-weave added line. Glue in your design should keep the Uni's from loosening. This may be key because if the Uni's relax at all, the connection will fail. It may now be worth experimenting with hours of casting to see what happens. (I learned a lot, the hard way, from this testing phase.)

A last thought, hollow-weave spectra has so many advantages that going fully hollow is probably the best long term solution.

Congratulations on your progress.
 

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the concept of the "nub" knot has been around for a little while.
There are a couple of keys to its success
the nub on the solid has to be large enough in diameter that its diameter is larger than the external serve/ uni / nail knot can stretch under load, to provide a positive interference fit.
a nub that is larger than necessary is counter productive.
( more is not necessarily better......... enough is best) .
I prefer a nail knot to uni's . & for 60# solid braid I am using 20# solid for the nail knot in the nub & 10-15 # solid for the external nail knot.
I serve the end of the hollow/ solid overlap with 2# solid .
( simply because I have heaps of it & this serve is not structural its only to generate a smooth slim transition at the mono/ hollow braid connection as the exposed end of the hollow bunches on the guides during the cast
( and that part is prepared at home anyway ).

My need is for a leader system that has the join and several wraps on the spool.

this type of solid/hollow/ mono system is the smoothest I have been able to come up with , having high join strengths of +90% utilising "nub" knots on both the solid and the leader in their attachment to the hollow between them

I have a background in "real" mid line to line splices in double braid polyester ropes up to 8 Tonne UTS............ purse lines in the commercial fishery.
The end is attached to a S/steel solid oval ring ( for screw locking carabiner type attachment to vessel equipment ).
That ring is attached with a braid loop with simply 3 crosslocked individual lashings and a multiple needle cross stitch thru both ropes in the 2 sections between the 3 lashings ..............and then a serve for the tag end.
This loop attachment has never let go at many tons of pressure from the hydraulic winch.
He He.............no test gear to identify actual BS , but cyclic loads are in the thousands without failure so I can vouch for the stitches thru braid providing a "no-slip" attachment............as BRD suggests........& I have been playing with myself.

I agree entirely with Roger's point in another thread on leaders that wet line in an 'on-boat' leader replacement mitigates against the use of glues.
my quest has been for a glueless solid/hollow join that is quick and reliable for on-board use.
The danger area is the achievement of high friction in the nub on the solid rather than the external knot on the hollow...........with the need for that join to be super slim as well as strong.

I can see where a long section of hollow attached to a solid mainline and a loop to loop shock leader outside the tip could have advantages too.
My personal preference is for a long leader length that is more abrasion resistant than PE.

Now, if someone could come up with hollow braided Vectran or Zylon for that job, we might be able to evolve even further forward.
( the only form of those materials that I have been able to source thus far is in solid braid form.)
 

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...

I agree entirely with Roger's point in another thread on leaders that wet line in an 'on-boat' leader replacement mitigates against the use of glues.
my quest has been for a glueless solid/hollow join that is quick and reliable for on-board use. ...

For quick and reliable on-board, take several feet (length up to you) of hollow and splice an end loop. Take a piece of wire (or thread) and thread the end to be spliced, you now have the "puller". Coil and store.

When you need it, the loop is ready. All you do is grab the the solid mainline pull it in and tie the Serve and Safety Uni of my splice design (above post). If pre-rigged, it takes a couple minutes and works on salty, wet line.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I agree with everything written here, and thanks for spending the time to critique this. I also agree that all hollow is usually better. I read and tested the solid to hollow technique pametfisher posted on a west coast site. In fact, I was so impressed with his methods that I tracked him down to this website!
There are several scenarios where it is not possible or desireable to use all hollow. One situation that is coming up more and more often in the west coast long range fishery is the use of the newest generations of tiny 2 speed reels to target 100# class and bigger YFT from large stationary boats. These small reels are used because they are powerful enough to do the job, and can effectively cast 5" sardines which at times is essential. Just as before spectra began to be used, line capacity is once again a problem. In my last 2 trips to Alijos rocks, I have witnessed 5 or 6 spoolings while anglers were hooked up to average size fish while using these new reels. The 60# hollow does not give enough line. That is why I am using 50# izor (and have for years while fishing the tiny pro gear 545's). I won't fish a reel with less than 400 yards in this fishery. My reels are typically set up with 350 yards of 50# solid to 50 yards of 60# hollow to 10 yards of 80# hollow to a short windon. I and many others also fish high drag settings that are uncomfortably close to the breaking strengths of all of the standard solid to hollow connections while using this small size spectra.

I imagine that soon people will be using 40# solid to increase their line capacity, and with 100% connections, this is now possible.

I learned a similar technique joining hawsers in the US coast Guard 31 years ago. I don't know why it took me 5 years messing with spectra before I applied these old lessons!
 

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Roger
The only issue with your glueless solid to hollow is that it has two bulkier unis in the solid & hollow rather than a single slimmer 'nub' with a lighter and slimmer nailknot or uni to lock against the nub.
ie its as bulky as a PR..........and for the same reason.
But its slimmer than a loop/loop when that is in the guidetrain by angler leader length desire.

No doubt at all that your glueless solid to hollow join is a bit faster to execute.

a properly executed 'nub' stops any creep & the sleeved section can be 6" long instead of the longer section in your glueless join.

Casting tests thus far identify worthwhile gains in distance with the 'nub' knot configuration as it slips thru the guides with the barest of noise & loss of energy.

Can't wait to see some hollow Vectran or Zylon braid in the marketplace and I would be happy with that as a casting/ wear leader, with a short heavy nylon shock leader loop/loop outside the tip in my rigs.
 

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Roger
The only issue with your glueless solid to hollow is that it has two bulkier unis in the solid & hollow rather than a single slimmer 'nub' with a lighter and slimmer nailknot or uni to lock against the nub.
ie its as bulky as a Page Ranking..........and for the same reason.
But its slimmer than a loop/loop when that is in the guidetrain by angler leader length desire.

No doubt at all that your glueless solid to hollow join is a bit faster to execute.

a properly executed 'nub' stops any creep & the sleeved section can be 6" long instead of the longer section in your glueless join.

Casting tests thus far identify worthwhile gains in distance with the 'nub' knot configuration as it slips thru the guides with the barest of noise & loss of energy.

Can't wait to see some hollow Vectran or Zylon braid in the marketplace and I would be happy with that as a casting/ wear leader, with a short heavy nylon shock leader loop/loop outside the tip in my rigs.

Denis,
I've made a lot of these up and they are quite slim (slimmer than I believe you're imagining) and cast pretty well. In fact I'd say there's essentially no impact on casting (speaking about 30# to 100# lines). Also, the single loop to loop connection in hollow-weave spectra turns into a "dot" on the line. I can send you a sample of an 80# loop to loop in hollow spectra if you'd like to see it or find some photos.

The reason that the "Uni" Serve is small is that it's actually a "half" Uni in the sense that you really only have the outer wraps and 1/4" of single line going once under the wraps.

I think I'm going to add a Solid/Hollow connector with a pre-spliced END LOOP and a 3' puller pre-threaded to the Product list on my web site. Packaged, it would be something like $10 bucks.

I'd encourage you to make one up and try it. My eleven spinning reels are configured as follows:

4 stella/penn 950: 60# hollow topped with 80# hollow (line to line splice), End Loop to wind on.

3 Penn 704Z: 30# PP topped with 60# hollow (Solid Hollow splice), End Loop to wind-on.

2 Shimano baitrunners: 50# solid PP topped with 60# hollow (Solid Hollow splice), End Loop to wind-on.

1 spheros, 1 stradic: 30# PP topped with 60# hollow (Solid Hollow splice), End Loop to wind-on.

Plus, I've added this to dozens of reels this year for other guys. Repeating myself, they cast great.
 

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The method I have been using is similar to pametfisher except, instead of the second uni, I exit the hollow with the solid and reenter the hollow like you do on a loop, thus eliminating the second uni. In tests this weekend, the 80# Momoi Diamond always broke first, not the 80# JB. I do glue the first uni however. It's just a habit as I glue all knots, including mono

d
 
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The method I have been using is similar to pametfisher except, instead of the second uni, I exit the hollow with the solid and reenter the hollow like you do on a loop, thus eliminating the second uni. In tests this weekend, the 80# Momoi Diamond always broke first, not the 80# JB. I do glue the first uni however. It's just a habit as I glue all knots, including mono

d

I've been thinking about eliminating the recommendation for the safety Uni.

Using my same instructions from before, the new ones would say to come out for 2" and go back in for 6". If you ever saw the 2" tag hanging loose, you would know the splice had moved (not likely).

I'm not a fan of the glue for this splice because at max load, for the splice to do the load carrying, the Uni Serve has to be free to move just a teeny bit. However, using 80# hollow the Uni should be pulled tight with 50 lbs. force so that the Uni serve is rock-hard.

Good suggestion.
 

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Denis,
I've made a lot of these up and they are quite slim (slimmer than I believe you're imagining) and cast pretty well. In fact I'd say there's essentially no impact on casting (speaking about 30# to 100# lines). Also, the single loop to loop connection in hollow-weave spectra turns into a "dot" on the line. I can send you a sample of an 80# loop to loop in hollow spectra if you'd like to see it or find some photos.

The reason that the "Uni" Serve is small is that it's actually a "half" Uni in the sense that you really only have the outer wraps and 1/4" of single line going once under the wraps.

I think I'm going to add a Solid/Hollow connector with a pre-spliced END LOOP and a 3' puller pre-threaded to the Product list on my web site. Packaged, it would be something like $10 bucks.

Evolution is the name of the game.

I've tried that glueless style join of yours and an alternative of simply a surgeons knot in the sleeved mainline end when adding a pre-prepared mono leader with straight hollow spliced to it. this latter method is by far the fastest leader replacement when the mainline has broken, BUT, the surgeons knot in the sleeved mainline/hollow is both bulky and ~80% in my tests.

I think you are missing the point that I want the mainline/hollow join in the spool with a few wraps of leader.
This is a personal approach and my total leader length is 2 - 2.5 X rod length as a minimum, with a short mono shock leader of about a metre.
The issue for spinners and repetitive reliable casting is the mainline join on the spool needs to be slim and short to minimise both the bulk and weight of the join to minimise radial momentum as the join spirals off the spool under acceleration in the cast...........to pass smoothly down the guidetrain.

These are not issues that need to be considered when that join is not on the spool.
The link here is back to the prev thread about PR knots .
Short and minimal weight , but a little bulky. when replaced on the boat with a loop /loop the leader length had to be shortened to leave the join outside the spool to avoid line getting caught behind the loop/loop on some casts.
My quest has been for a slim short solid to hollow join that is quick to execute.
Where that is to perform better than a PR knot in casting performance off the spool the insertion length of the solid into the hollow has to be minimised,
the "nub" knot and external uni/nail 'serve" offers that situation, with no need for bobbins etc on the boat.

With large fish I am looking for an equivalent to the IGFA style double plus leader of sufficient strength to control the fish with high loads close to the boat and deal with inadvertent contact with boat equipment at that stage of the fight. Doubles are simply not viable casting spinners. The alternatives are mono ( hence PR knot ) or a sufficient length of hollow of 2 X mainline BS and thence to a short mono shock leader to handle teeth/jaw/pectoral fin abrasion.

I'm still playing with the configuration for what I want & the PR knot is still my " go to " configuration when I step on the boat until I satisfy myself of the reliability of the alternative "nub" knot . Its certainly showing promise in practical testing .

I have absolutely no concerns with using a loop to loop when it isn't on the spool and preferably outside the guidetrain.
 

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Evolution is the name of the game.

...

The issue for spinners and repetitive reliable casting is the mainline join on the spool needs to be slim and short to minimise both the bulk and weight of the join to minimise radial momentum as the join spirals off the spool under acceleration in the cast...........to pass smoothly down the guidetrain.
...



These issues you mention have all been solved by short flexible Serves and short splices. Even working when all the joins are on the spool.

Regarding the solid/hollow connector, the longer you make it, the less it interferes with casting since it is the startup acceleration that really reeks havoc with radial momentum.

Seeing/trying is believing.
 

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I must be seeking different things than you are Roger
To each his own.
I'll respond in my fishing with my personal solutions to what I see & what I measure & validate with testing.

I have been using loops for the best part of a decade and have friends here in Oz that have been marketing windon loop versions for more than a decade, both domestically & internationally.
Different people use loops in different configuations for different purposes and have different expectations ...........( they are hard to beat for some uses.)

That's fishing.

There is more than one way to do things & compromise to suit the purpose.
what works for you is good for you.
what works for me is good for me
what works for the next person is good for that person.
Otherwise we would all be using the same brand of rod, reel, line & lure ............... it would be catching not fishing & terribly boring.
I'm not selling a product, rarely completely knock a product ( and not knocking yours) . I talk about advantages & disadvantages & merely sharing my info for members to take or leave as they see fit.
 

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I must be seeking different things than you are Roger
To each his own.
I'll respond in my fishing with my personal solutions to what I see & what I measure & validate with testing.

I have been using loops for the best part of a decade and have friends here in Oz that have been marketing windon loop versions for more than a decade, both domestically & internationally.
Different people use loops in different configuations for different purposes and have different expectations ...........( they are hard to beat for some uses.)

That's fishing.

There is more than one way to do things & compromise to suit the purpose.
what works for you is good for you.
what works for me is good for me
what works for the next person is good for that person.
Otherwise we would all be using the same brand of rod, reel, line & lure ............... it would be catching not fishing & terribly boring.
I'm not selling a product, rarely completely knock a product ( and not knocking yours) . I talk about advantages & disadvantages & merely sharing my info for members to take or leave as they see fit.

Well said. (Man is the Measure of all Things"- Protagoras ( c. 480-410 B.C.))

About 1/3 of the posts I've made that include measurements, field tests, suggestions, comparisons and photographs can be found here: Hollow Spectra Techniques. They are there for anyone who wants to use, improve or judge. Later today, I'll add some side by side photos of the various techniques that have been mentioned in this thread.
 

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I'm not a fan of the glue for this splice because at max load, for the splice to do the load carrying, the Uni Serve has to be free to move just a teeny bit. However, using 80# hollow the Uni should be pulled tight with 50 lbs. force so that the Uni serve is rock-hard.

Good suggestion.

When I say I glue the knot, I just use locktite super glue on the knot. No activator or anything like that. Just something to keep the uni from slipping.

d
 

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BTW, Lowes carries a Locktite super glue for plastics such as polyethelene which includes an activator for $3.77. Seems to work great on braid

D
 

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When I say I glue the knot, I just use locktite super glue on the knot. No activator or anything like that. Just something to keep the uni from slipping.

d

Your suggestion to use glue is not a bad one. To me, what glue does best is to manage tag ends to keep them from unraveling, since knots get weakened if the tags get loose--e.g. securing the tag end of a Bimini Twist.

I'm a little less comfortable that glue is the best solution for keeping Spectra/Dyneema knots from slipping. My experience has been that you can always find the right number of turns for a stable knot; however, "belts and suspenders" is sometimes a good idea.

Very thin CA glue (like Loctite 406), applied to certain dry uncontaminated Spectra can eliminate the stress concentration in knots and increase their strength by 30% or more. However, not all glues work, not all Spectra works, the lines have to be clean, etc. There is a link to the best article on Spectra and glue that I've read (link: GSP and Me) by Max Garth near the bottom of the page.
 

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Roger
have you read any of the NASA work on surface preparation of UHDPE and the role of "primer" treatments in modifying the surface of UHDPE prior to adhesive application.
some very interesting stuff there.

another contributor did a lot of background searching on the subject for the purpose of epoxying mono & fluoro in a rodbuilding application........ CKW wraps.............and UHDPE 'rubbing strips' prior to that.
Heavy going, but interesting in the liquid & non-liquid mechanisms the researchers examined to modify UHDPE surfaces..........some of which were quite complex.

the primary objective of the pre-treatment is to 'oxidise' the surface to achieve 'bite' for the adhesive on an otherwise incredibly smooth surface.

an interesting outcome was that whilst adhesion was improved in initial application the strength of the bond declined reasonably rapidly over time to approximate the adhesion achieved by an unprimed adhesive. ( the length of time varying with the 'priming' technique).

NASA's application was attachment of UHDPE sheet to various substrates, and spectra knots/splices/serves, is a very different UHDPE application.
But
the issue with adhesives & UHDPE is not the the strength of the adhesive itself, but the bond to the surface of the UHDPE at a molecular level.

your last post in this thread has got me thinking about CA application on wet braid and the potential of pre-treatment of knots with IPA :-
- IPA was one of the 'primers' in the NASA UHDPE research
- IPA takes water into solution & the water evaporates with the IPA.

leading to thinking that IPA might be of use in pre-treating wet braid 'splices'.
after a mainline break is encountered.

IPA is a controlled substance here in Oz & terribly expensive, but freely available & relatively cheap on your side of the pond.

When you have the time, it might be worth trying a series of tests on your test rig to see if there is any benefit with IPA pre-treatment , in 'wicking' the CA into the spectra/knot/serve/splice fibres.

BTW.........FWIW.......
'Harro" has been a personal friend for well over 30 yrs and we were fishing buddies in his 'conversion' from F/W fishing into S/water fishing at the start of the ' 70s.
 
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