Saragosa Reel Problem

Discussion in 'Reel Repair' started by sbarracl, Nov 28, 2008.

  1. sbarracl

    sbarracl Member

    34
    0
    I have been looking at spinners to cast to small bluefin tuna on Stellwagon Bank in MA. I have been checking out the Shimano Spheros, Saragosa, Okuma V System, Fin Nor Offshore, and the Quatum Cabo Pt. I am not looking to spend the big bucks on a Stella or high end reel, I have plenty of good quality trolling gear that I use most of the time. I went to Fisherman's Outfitters in Gloucester, MA and talked to them about the reels. They have sold a lot of Shimano's to guys catching blue fins in the 150 lb range. Apparently, the new models (FB) of the Spheros and Saragosa have developed the same problem. The plastic drag adjusting cap presses on the top metal washer of the drag stack and melts under a long run. The melted cap can stick to the drag stack and mess up the spool rotation. He cautioned me about buying either of the reels until Shimano comes out with a fix for the issue. He said Shimano knows about it and is working on it.

    This sounds like the exact problem that KSONG had and posted about. Apparently this has happened to more than half a dozen of the reels. He showed me one of the melted caps. He also took apart a FA model spheros drag and a FB model and the FB model has smaller diameter drag washers, but more of them. The FB model drags must get hotter and its enough to melt the drag cap. The salesman expected Shimano to have a fix soon and get it to everyone who has bought either model of the new reel. The Saragosa has the same drag stack and cap design as the Shperos.

    It doesn't seem like a big problem to me, but it does need to be addressed and fixed for the reel to stand up to bigger fish. It could be argued the reel is being pushed beyond its limits, but a melted plastic part should not be the weak link of the reel.

    Anyone else out there experience this??
     
  2. ksong

    ksong SPONSOR

    11,827
    1,420
    I have been looking at spinners to cast to small bluefin tuna on Stellwagon Bank in MA. I have been checking out the Shimano Spheros, Saragosa, Okuma V System, Fin Nor Offshore, and the Quatum Cabo Pt. I am not looking to spend the big bucks on a Stella or high end reel, I have plenty of good quality trolling gear that I use most of the time. I went to Fisherman's Outfitters in Gloucester, MA and talked to them about the reels. They have sold a lot of Shimano's to guys catching blue fins in the 150 lb range. Apparently, the new models (FB) of the Spheros and Saragosa have developed the same problem. The plastic drag adjusting cap presses on the top metal washer of the drag stack and melts under a long run. The melted cap can stick to the drag stack and mess up the spool rotation. He cautioned me about buying either of the reels until Shimano comes out with a fix for the issue. He said Shimano knows about it and is working on it.

    This sounds like the exact problem that KSONG had and posted about. Apparently this has happened to more than half a dozen of the reels. He showed me one of the melted caps. He also took apart a FA model spheros drag and a FB model and the FB model has smaller diameter drag washers, but more of them. The FB model drags must get hotter and its enough to melt the drag cap. The salesman expected Shimano to have a fix soon and get it to everyone who has bought either model of the new reel. The Saragosa has the same drag stack and cap design as the Shperos.

    It doesn't seem like a big problem to me, but it does need to be addressed and fixed for the reel to stand up to bigger fish. It could be argued the reel is being pushed beyond its limits, but a melted plastic part should not be the weak link of the reel.

    Anyone else out there experience this??
    I talked with a Shimano rep the other day and asked whether this problem has been already fixed or not. He said all new Saragosa reels have different design to prevent the problem.
    However, when I checked the cap of the new Saragosa 18000F, I don't see any noticeable difference bewteen old one and new one. :)
     

  3. sbarracl

    sbarracl Member

    34
    0
    I have a new Saragosa on order. I may call a rep and ask what the change was so I can tell if my new reel has it? The person I talked to was very knowledgable, as the shop has been talking to Shimano about the issue, and they said they are waiting for the fix and will give it to their customers when it arrives.
     
  4. MrBill

    MrBill Senior Member

    2,835
    107
    Plastic!!!!!!!!

    Plastic melts, and cracks and breaks and weakens with time in sunlight. That's why I like metal.:)
     
  5. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

    1,387
    30
    Ksong wrote a topic about the amount of drag needed for the tuna we see and will see next year in Cape Cod Bay. That prompted me to analyze whether my reel, Penn 950SSM, could produce enough drag. It is marginally up to the task and I've gone and bought Stella 20000 FAs.

    One outcome was a calculation I made of how much energy a single 200 yard run against 15# of drag (which builds as line comes off the spool). The heat produced by the drag washers is equal to 250 Watts for a full minute.

    That heat is produced by the washers and what they rub against ... and then that heat must be conducted to the spool.

    In addition to a top drag washer the Penn has a large washer on the bottom of the spool that is in direct contact with the spool. From pictures I looked at when deciding to buy the Stella or Saragosa, I saw that the Saragosa has a top stack of drag washers and metal friction washers (like my old Penn 704Zs). When those washers heat up quickly, I don't see any good way to get the heat to the spool.

    The bottom line is 250 Watts for a minute could make the temperature in a small area, like the top of the spool, get very high, very fast. My hunch is that's what's heating and melting the plastic drag cap.

    In electronics, thermal conducting grease is used to solve problems like that.

    I would like to ask Shimano how they conduct so much heat out of that stack. But I decided I wanted the more robust Stella drag. That was the deciding factor for me.

    I will be very interested in how Shimano says they've solved the problem.
     
  6. ember

    ember Guest

    50
    0
    The problem "may" also stem from friction on the part of the knob that spins as opposed to the heat build-up from the stack?I've had pretty fair results lubing the drag and liberally coating the bottom of the knob,and using more palm than mechanical drag on the intial run.I have an older Spheros(FA) with greased knob,greased Carbontek washers and leaving the plastic cover off that has been there and back,using that technique.With a sustained run,on a bigger fish I have dumped some of the drinking water on the spool,old school style too.Saragosa has done OK with the same methods,but has only seen a few fish.Time will tell.Keep in mind,there is fair chance that the majority of the Cape Cod fish may come back next year too big :eek: for any spinning reel.
     
  7. ember

    ember Guest

    50
    0
    I've been able to incorporate some Stella parts into my favorite hot rodded Spheros FA,,,,,whats the Stella drag knob look like?Does it fit on Saragosa?....I think is a cool aftermarket aftermarket knob for Stella that might look good on my Saragosa............
     
  8. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

    1,387
    30
    The problem "may" also stem from friction on the part of the knob that spins as opposed to the heat build-up from the stack?I've had pretty fair results lubing the drag and liberally coating the bottom of the knob,and using more palm than mechanical drag on the intial run.I have an older Spheros(FA) with greased knob,greased Carbontek washers and leaving the plastic cover off that has been there and back,using that technique.With a sustained run,on a bigger fish I have dumped some of the drinking water on the spool,old school style too.Saragosa has done OK with the same methods,but has only seen a few fish.Time will tell.Keep in mind,there is fair chance that the majority of the Cape Cod fish may come back next year too big :eek: for any spinning reel.

    The top metal washer shouldn't be turning against the knob. But since that washer is at the top of the stack, all its heat is applied directly against the plastic knob.

    How the makers think that the top washer in a multistack can cool off is beyond me. They only make a small contact with the spool.
     
  9. ember

    ember Guest

    50
    0
    The top metal washer shouldn't be turning against the knob.
    Hold the soft rubber gasket with one hand,and turn the knob with the other.I wonder if the gasketed part,under the snap ring,when the drag is socked down, isnt whipping around with the spool. Since I dont usually drop my reels in,and the drags are greased anyway,I may discard that gasket during the winter overhaul.Its not waterproof anyway,the spool corroded in there pretty quick,even with reasonable maintanace.
     
  10. sbarracl

    sbarracl Member

    34
    0
    The top metal washer seems to be in direct contact with the plastic knob and the heat from the washer melts the knob. Shimano suggested filling the cavity with grease to keep the plastic from sticking to the metal washer, and maybe distribute the heat some. I would guess they can add a phenolic or "insulating" washer between the metal washer and the plastic knob to keep it from melting. They may need to shorten the stem on the knob, maybe not. It does seem the issue is getting the heat out of the drag stack and making sure whatever touches the drag stack can take the temp's. This must be a common problem with any top stack style spinner.
     
  11. dolbs

    dolbs Member

    78
    0
    Saragosa's seemd to be a good pt to get into the BF spinner market. I can't drop 9 bills on a VS...where do I look?
     
  12. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

    5,667
    791
    Shimano came out with a replacement Drag Knob to solve the problem experienced with the plastic ones in extreme situations.
    Current production has the new knob.
    the price points for competing products are
    -$200
    - $500-600
    - $ 900+

    In the low price bracket its pretty hard to go past the Saragosa, but it won't last forever & you cannot expect it to at the price, its a very good entry level reel.
     
  13. FDFisherman

    FDFisherman Senior Member

    110
    0
    Will Shimano replace the knob if I have one on my Saragosa? Free of Charge?