Rollers VS Guides ??

Discussion in 'Tackle and Rigging' started by jojo, Dec 5, 2006.

  1. jojo

    jojo Guest

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    OK guys not trying to start any fights here but I would like to get a bottom rod made and not to sure of any type of spec's for it
    The rod would be used for chunking and bottom fishing anything from snapper to AJ's grouper and YFT
     
  2. Sea Crappie

    Sea Crappie Senior Member

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    What reel will you put on it?

    What weight line?

    Max drag you intend to run?

    Do you fish mostly private boats or head boats?

    Use the rail or a harness?

    How tall are you?
     

  3. jojo

    jojo Guest

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    avet pro 30
    130jb hallow
    drag 20-35 if need be
    head boats
    I use both if need be
    5 foot 11 inches
     
  4. txseadog

    txseadog Moderator

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    I would recommend rollers on a 5.5' - 6' blanks from Seeker or Calstar.
    Here are some model# to consider:
    Seeker ctsf60xxh
    Calstar 760M/760H
     
  5. Sea Crappie

    Sea Crappie Senior Member

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    Here's my opinion FWIW, which coming from a crappie may not be much.....

    You'll need to work w/ your custom rod builder on fitting the rod to you. The lower butt section should be between 7 and 10 inches depending on how you want to fish the rod and/or use your harness. Upper grip need to be at least 12 inches and should be made of the hardest EVA you can find (if your builder doesn't have hard EVA, use hypalon). If you plan on using the rail alot, a fore-grip cover like Swifty's Rod Armor will help prevent your grip material from tearing on the rail when under pressure. Use a high quality aluminum reel seat (Aftco, Perfection, etc.)

    As far as guides go, for this app there is no compelling reason not to go to rollers. That said, if you're not into maintaining your gear or don't want the hassel, the heavy duty Fuji SIC guides are more than strong enough to handle what you need. You could also split the difference w/ a roller tip and stripper guide. One other cool option is using two stripper guides, first use a Aftco W/O stripper followed by an Aftco HD Stripper. This helps shallow out the angle of line leaving the reel and is a true custom touch.

    Here are some blanks I would reccomend:

    These are Calstar cause I've built on several of them. Seeker and CTS are other good options, I just don't have enough experience, hopefully someone else will chime in.

    5 1/2 ft

    GF755XH - this is a true beast of a rod w/ great recovery and light weight.
    Boomer Jr. - Old school fiberglass, unbreakable (not that the GF are) and super fast action. Some folks trim this blank (from both ends) to 5' or 5'3".

    6ft.

    GF760M - Great 60-80 lb rod. I've fished up to 30+ lbs of drag on mine but I don't prefer it, and feel that's pushing its limits
    GF760H - Strong 80-100 lb rod. Just like the M model the 6' length gives you nice clearance on the rail but is still short enough to use in a harness.
    GF7460H - Fast action, would consider this marginal for using in a harness. A very strong rod.

    6 1/2ft (i.e. put the harness away and get on the rail)

    GF7465M - if your rarely going over 25 lbs this is your choice
    GF7465H - Eat your wheaties if you want to put this rod through its paces, and if you want a true HD rail rod this could be the one.

    Hope this helps
     
  6. TeamOso

    TeamOso Senior Member

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    What about an Lx 6/3 2 speed and you could cast also, just might be a little light for the heavy bottom stuff. If I were you I would get an awesome rod on a Lx 6/3 two speed, then go old school with just a plain ol' 6/0 penn for the heavy bottom stuff. Or if you wanna get fancy, for a bottom I think a tiagra 20 or 30 would do the trick.
    Dont you thinkn a pro 30 would be a lil too heavy for snapps??


    Kevin
     
  7. Minnow

    Minnow Administrator

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    Jojo,

    My red rod with Penn 70VS is Calstar bajaboomer blank, do you like that rod?

    Seeker usually softer than Calstar Graphiter except the SuperSeeker series, if you like softer felling on the rod, go with Seeker. Want to fish with faster rod go with Calstar.

    Consider these blanks as an options:
    Graphite USA
    Kencor Zebra
    OTI 5'6 100#blank, Available january 2007

    20kg weight.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Mitchw123456

    Mitchw123456 Senior Member

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    20kg? as in 44lbs? That picture there puts thing into perspective when talking about fishing 40-50#s of drag..
     
  9. Minnow

    Minnow Administrator

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    FISH WITH 44 LB of DRAG, Scuba diving gears are a must.

    Blank doesn't come with scuba gears :D
     
  10. Savage Rods

    Savage Rods Member

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    I agree with Txseadog. You can't go wrong with either Seeker or Calstar blank. Use aftco rollers
     
  11. xs_tackle

    xs_tackle Senior Member

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    It also matters how this rod fits in to your present or planned collection. With your collection in mind, you might optimize this rod a little lighter or heavier with an eye to adding another rod later. You can never have too many.

    I am 6' tall and in the process of choosing my rods, I have used rods built on the Calstar Grafighter 760M, 765M, 760H, 760XH, 7460H and 755XXH and the Calstar 6455xxh. I've also heard some very good things from credible sources about the Seeker and Super Seeker 6463xxxh and 6463xxxxh; but, I haven't fished them yet. These are definitely rail rods.

    For general headboat fishing (from snapper, grouper, AJ, tuna) all can work, but, I have not used all of them on 130# line. That's a little heavy to really enjoy the 760M or 765M (on which I use 60# line). The 760H is a good 80-100# rod which gives you some action before you get to 35# of drag; and likewise the 760XH and 7460H. The 755xxh is a pool cue until you put about 35# pull on it; then it comes to life. However, it isn't as good a rail rod b/c it leaves you little extension beyond the rail on either side. OTOH, I know it can work b/c I've caught nice AJ's using the 6455xxh on the rail, and it's only a 5'5" rod.

    However, given your choice to fish 135# line, I'd say--
    1. You'll see few instances when you will want or need 35# of drag; so, don't make a rod keyed to that drag your first or second rod unless playing with that eqpt makes it all worthwhile.
    2. Don't go too light; that'll be more fun later w/another reel.
    3. Conclusion: go for the Calstar 760H, 7460H or a seeker 6463xxxh for the line, reel and purposes you describe. You may later opt for a larger reel for the rod.

    If you don't find the hard matl you want for the foregrip on a rail rod, take a look at the cold shrink matl used by various rod builders and covered in a Bloody Decks "how-to."
     
  12. Uncle Russ

    Uncle Russ Senior Member

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    XS: I have acquired the 760H, although I have not fished it yet. I also bought a 7465H, the blank for which I do not see listed on Calstar's site. This rod has Aftco wind-on guides, and is expressly made for the rail, I am told. Could this be the same blank as the 7460H but extended to fit out over the rail?

    Russ
     
  13. xs_tackle

    xs_tackle Senior Member

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    I'd think it's just a longer 7460H; but, I don't know.
     
  14. ALW

    ALW Senior Member

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    Does length really matter? If a Tuna is on and straight down the tip is straight down. Could taper and the point at which the bend starts on the rod be more important? I just built a 6 ftTuna stick, SeaMagic blank. 21lbs load has the rod tip pointed straight down less than 3 ft from the reel. Its really difficult to determine what the blank does with only a catalog reference number and line load. The shut off point on blanks would be good to know.
     
  15. Sea Crappie

    Sea Crappie Senior Member

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    XS: I have acquired the 760H, although I have not fished it yet. I also bought a 7465H, the blank for which I do not see listed on Calstar's site. This rod has Aftco wind-on guides, and is expressly made for the rail, I am told. Could this be the same blank as the 7460H but extended to fit out over the rail?

    Russ

    Russ,

    The 7465 series is a faster action than the 765 series (765 is a "tuna" action rod, same action as a 760 model only longer). This is a true HEAVY rail rod that will shut off more quickly and have more lifting power than the 765H. If you plan to use this rod as it's meant to be used, I'd seriously consider putting Swifty's Rod Armor (heat shrink material) or Rod Wrap (it's like a tennis raquet grip) on the foregrip. The rails will eat it up faster than a crappie can gulp down a minnow otherwise.


    Does length really matter? If a Tuna is on and straight down the tip is straight down. Could taper and the point at which the bend starts on the rod be more important? I just built a 6 ftTuna stick, SeaMagic blank. 21lbs load has the rod tip pointed straight down less than 3 ft from the reel. Its really difficult to determine what the blank does with only a catalog reference number and line load. The shut off point on blanks would be good to know.

    ALW,

    Length does matter, good god man, where have you been? Seriously though, the shut off point is very important, but the speed and strength with which the rod recovers from being bent is even more important. A trevala could have the same shutoff point as a GF760m, but not have near the lifting power because the tip is a noodle compared to the GF (this is due to the taper and the modulus of the material in the tip). I agree it's tough to pick a blank out of the catalogue. Some japanese jigging / popping companies now produce graphs w/ outlines of the rod under various loads to give us a better idea. This is great in my opinion and I wish CS and Seeker would do it too. Another thing that helps is pulling on as many blanks as you can (or built rods). My wife thinks I'm some kind of weirdo for always taking time to pull on a few blanks when I'm at FTU, but it really makes a difference.

    As a general note, if you're interested in standup rods (even if you don't build your own) Volume 5 Issue 6 of Rodmaker Magazine has a huge indepth article covering all the aspects of custom standup rod making. Several superb rodbuilders contributed to the article including Ian Miller. You can easily buy backissues at www.Rodmakermagazine.com
     
  16. ALW

    ALW Senior Member

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    Thanks Sea Crappie, I will get a copy of the magazine, I am just scratching the surface of rod science now. I am going to load my CS babyboomer and see how it compares with the SeaMagic.

    Al
     
  17. MrBill

    MrBill Senior Member

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    Jojo,

    My red rod with Penn 70VS is Calstar bajaboomer blank, do you like that rod?

    Seeker usually softer than Calstar Graphiter except the SuperSeeker series, if you like softer felling on the rod, go with Seeker. Want to fish with faster rod go with Calstar.

    Consider these blanks as an options:
    Graphite USA
    Kencor Zebra
    OTI 5'6 100#blank, Available january 2007

    20kg weight.

    Minnow,
    If that's your testing lab, it's pretty fancy. What is the OTI 5'6" blank rated for 100 pounds action. What materials are used in the blanks construction? What color is the blank? Just blanks, or water ready?
     
  18. Uncle Russ

    Uncle Russ Senior Member

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    Once I got it in the mail and picked it up, I thought about sending the brute back, but I figured, what the hell, I can always use it at the ranch for corner post.
     
  19. xs_tackle

    xs_tackle Senior Member

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    ALW,
    Of course length matters, but the how and why are important. For starters, A rod is a lever--with the fish on one end, you on the other and the fulcrum in between somewhere. The fulcrum may be the rail or harness lugs supported by you or your hands. The location of the fulcrum partially determines your leverage relative to the fish (and that of your fish relative to you) when you're hooked up. However, the fish's leverage (mechanical advantage or disadvantage) is determined by the "effective" length of the rod on the fish's side of the fulcrum. I say "effective" length because the unstressed rod length is shortened by the bend in the rod.

    The rod is also a spring; and, this plays into both how it fights the fish and how it casts (how quickly it "unloads" the energy you "load" into it during casting). Typically, slower unloading makes for easier conventional casting because it allows more time for spool acceleration at the beginning and deceleration at the end of the cast--this means less "finger education" is required to get the optimal cast.

    Rods are a world of entertainment--even while you're not fishing them.
     
  20. Minnow

    Minnow Administrator

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    Minnow,
    If that's your testing lab, it's pretty fancy. What is the OTI 5'6" blank rated for 100 pounds action. What materials are used in the blanks construction? What color is the blank? Just blanks, or water ready?

    MrBill,

    I wish I have that kind of testing facility:). That was pictures from factory testing lab.
    OTI 5'6" blank will be rated for 100lb line, blank material is composite glass and graphite. Rod blanks will be high gloss color but other colors are possible.

    It will be water ready rod but we might bring in limited quantity blanks.

    What color blanks do you have in mind?
     
  21. MrBill

    MrBill Senior Member

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    Black or white would be nice. If it's water ready, what kind of guides and butt are going to be on the rod? Do you know the color of thread used on the wrapping?
     
  22. Minnow

    Minnow Administrator

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    All of our rods will have Fuji SIC guides, reel seat and aluminum gimbal.
    We are working on wrapping colors.
     
  23. jojo

    jojo Guest

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    TJ, What is the cost of one of the water ready rod (OTI)