Rod taper/ power

Discussion in 'Rods and Rod Blanks' started by Kevin Bogan, Sep 17, 2009.

  1. Kevin Bogan

    Kevin Bogan Banned

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    It appears that more and more rod blanks are appearing on the market for jigging. I have seen rods labeled as "Fast" where in fact they are actually slow tapered. Aside from the apparent misconception in some labels, does anyone feel that one taper is better for jigging? Does this same taper fight the fish or land him faster? Length? Is there an actual "ideal" length?
    What are the mechanics utilized that make one design more effective than another?
     
  2. BretABaker

    BretABaker Guest

    for shorter rods a more parabolic bend is better for jigging IMO. the rod cannot be a noodle, but bending prgressively through the blank takes a lot of stress off the angler.


    for long jigging rods i like a faster action to preserve some backbone and allow you to utilize some of the benefits of a long rod.
     

  3. paul708

    paul708 Site Sponsor

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    Kevin
    what labels have you seen where the fast was actually slow.
    what models are you speaking of.
     
  4. Nev

    Nev Senior Member

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    I always assumed that when a rod is labeled "fast", that it was refering to the action rather than the taper.
    You can make a blank on a slow taper mandrel (.005-.006) but create a fast action by adding say a higher modulus cloth to the mid and butt sections.
    Basically a rod that can go parabolic and not break reduces the leverage on the angler so this then allows you to run a higher drag without being pulled over the side.
    A rod made on a .007 taper can still go parabolic but will have more back bone and so increase the levarage on the angler.
    As BretABaker said shorter rods will always give the angler an advantage but it will reduce the range of jigs that can be used.
     
  5. paul708

    paul708 Site Sponsor

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    Nev.
    can you give example of blank made on a slow taper mandrel with a fast action.
    what blank models are you speaking of?
     
  6. jig42na

    jig42na Spinal Rods

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    "Fast", "Action", "Taper" are being misused here as it often is. Even Parabolic was new to me for awhile as it wasn't used before. Taper is the transition from butt to tip. The modulus graphite is about the weight of the rod to some degree, and isn't really part of the action. If the tip bends alot and nothing in the butt than is has a "fast" or rapid taper. If it bends evenly "parabolic" or "slowly" then it most likely has a slow transition from the butt to the tip. The ingredients and tapers can also create dead spots in blanks or weird feelings. The funny thing is when these companies sell especially in fly rods market super dooper high mod graphite but have to use a heavy glue to hold it together, thus making no lighter.
    I'm no pro. just buy what you like.
    As for jigging I like a rod like Bret mentioned, but a bit faster where the tip works more of the jig and then gets into the power further down.
     
  7. Nev

    Nev Senior Member

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    Nev.
    can you give example of blank made on a slow taper mandrel with a fast action.
    what blank models are you speaking of?

    In NZ some of the popular brands we see like Xzoga,JM etc use a slow taper mandrel for 200g to 500g rods and alter the action and lifting capabilities by changing the patterns i.e. increasing the wall thickness in the lower sections.
    Others like Smith/Synit will use a slow mandrel but will use a combination of different modulus cloth and even add Carbon Kevlar in specific areas on the blank to create the action they want. The rods we see here are very much dominated by what is made in Asia. We are are only just starting to see rods now with the types of actions that jig42na likes.
     
  8. Kevin Bogan

    Kevin Bogan Banned

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    Kevin
    what labels have you seen where the fast was actually slow.
    what models are you speaking of.

    Paul, I'll say for now that it is a "Generic" comment. I'll sight one example. Shimano has probably put the greatest effort of any compnay in "Marketing" the "Jig" rod. I believe most models are labeled "Med/Fast". I dont want to go through various blank catalogs to see which are actually labeled that way, I am saying that the term is frequently used as a selling point. In my shop a lot of people come in and ask do you have a rod thats Fast tapered? I would bet that 9 out of 10 wouldnt be able to answer, "what is fast taper".
    It's a term that sells. I have seen many videos and photos on assorted websites where someone is saying "Hey guys, look at me catching the big one with my new Tuna jig stick". These photos are probably rods/blanks from various mfgs. but one thing is for sure, they are "slow", not medium, and certainly not fast. Calstar GF Graphiters are examples of Fast taper blanks.
    NEV, do you mean mandrel diameters of .500/.600? you say.005, I'm not sure what you mean?
     
  9. Eastern Tackle

    Eastern Tackle Senior Member

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    Kevin,
    One thing is for sure. At next years rod building show, I will be trying to unravel this mystery for myself.

    I'm not sure I have ever even used the term mandrel or taper in a conversation with a blank manufacturer. Its always about weight, length and action, with a tad of tip/butt diameters thrown in.
     
  10. Kevin Bogan

    Kevin Bogan Banned

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    Kevin,
    One thing is for sure. At next years rod building show, I will be trying to unravel this mystery for myself.

    I'm not sure I have ever even used the term mandrel or taper in a conversation with a blank manufacturer. Its always about weight, length and action, with a tad of tip/butt diameters thrown in.

    My family owns a fleet of party boats in the Northeast, Jamaica, Paramount fleets. We have jigged for Tuna since the late 70's, about 30 years. We have always used E Galss rod blanks that would simulate the actions of a standart RT 30lb rod or slightly stiffer at about 7' in length. They always worked well. Now you see a lot of "skinny" looking rod blanks, "Composite" that have this, that and the next thing inside the blank and of course they "wrap one one way, another a different way" [fancy materials names]. Are these materials superior? Are the methods better? I personally dont believe so. I always said, give a party boat deckhand a medium taper glass stick and he will out fish most anglers. An Anglers ability far outweighs the materials he is fishing with.
    What type of products do you sell? Where you from?
     
  11. BretABaker

    BretABaker Guest

    thats definitely true - a good angler with mediocre gear can outfish a crappy angler with superior gear. however, there are advantages to new materials. lighter in weight, higher in strength for one. on a long 7' type rod that you're describing, you dont want a fully parabolic rod for a lot of reasons. the long rod gives you advantages on a party boat.

    however, when fishing on a private boat, lots of the reasons for having a long rod go away. there are still a few advantages but having a shorter parabolic rod is nice in that you can put more pressure on the fish and less pressure on the angler. the use of a gimbal belt is also something that can be done easily on a private boat. IMO, the use of a belt/harness on a NE party boat is more of a hassle for the anglers and everyone else around him than it is a blessing. its not like SD where the rails are thigh high.

    with new rods/reels/line - anglers are able to jig with stronger and lighter setups. can i jig with an old 6/0 senator and a heavy stick? sure, but id rather do it with a small light reel, color coded braid and a light jigging rod.
     
  12. BretABaker

    BretABaker Guest

    i do miss the jamaica. hopefully ill be back in time for seabass :)
     
  13. Eastern Tackle

    Eastern Tackle Senior Member

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    can i jig with an old 6/0 senator and a heavy stick? sure, but id rather do it with a small light reel, color coded braid and a light jigging rod.

    So true there Bret. I can yo-yo jig a 50 wide, for a little while anyway. But you can't mechanical/japanese/speed jig effectively without the right equipment.

    We had all of these same discussions with Paul last year. The difference was that he came down to NC, broke bread with us and fished. He saw what we were doing. And he figured out first hand why we wanted the blanks we were asking for and how they were going to be used.

    He is about a year ahead on this learning curve and right now he has a perfect grasp of what it takes to custom build a jigging rod, because he knows what questions to ask from real life/first hand experience, just like TJ, Kilsong and the guys from APS.

    -Jig weight/water depth
    -jigging style
    -target species
    -target size
    -boat platform

    ....and about a zillion others.

    But I am the first to admit he took some bumps from us getting there. I do hope he is in the bite today. Woot!


    PS.. Mad Marlin....you made me smile :)
     
  14. Kevin Bogan

    Kevin Bogan Banned

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    Kevin. This would be an easy way to find out
    Tell you what , why dont you invite on one of your boats a bunch of the best anglers in this site ( gman - bretAbaker - kilsong - da - Paul JPR rod ) to say a couple of them as there are many more. Them put your Deck hands to outfish them with the rods of your spech & will all know why.


    Sir I know about the people you mention. I wouldnt want to say that they arent great fishermen , they are. I said that the average party boat deckhand would out fish MOST anglers, it's a fact. The statement is not a challenge, but I think that you know that these deckhands are some of the best fishermen anywhere. And the guys you mention, them too!
     
  15. BretABaker

    BretABaker Guest

    one thing ill admit is that i do like a long rod for the style of jigging i do mainly (slow, traditional up/down style). the oti 7'6 80lb rod is my go to rod for everything from tuna to grouper. i also like using it on a boat higher from the water (i.e. party boat) since its nice to be able to sling a jig underhand with it.
     
  16. Nev

    Nev Senior Member

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    Kevin,
    when we buy the steel from the States or Korea for making rods they are called mandrels.
    If the mandrel tip is 1.0mm and at the butt is 12.0mm over 1675mm(5'6") then it has a avg taper rate of approx. 0.006
    An example of a blank made on a mandrel like this is the one I did for Mogi recently and was used a couple of weeks ago chasing AJ's with Sami and the Groper boys group in NC.
    The ones I am designing for Glenn are on a different mandrel again.
    As for which length or style is better, That is just personal preference. In NZ the majority of people MJ with overheads (5'-5'3") as JM do a lot of marketing and Filming in our waters.
     
  17. ksong

    ksong SPONSOR

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    I must be a pretty good teacher than a good fisherman as my students frequently outfish me. :)
    Kevin is right by saying that party boats crew can outfish most other anglers with basic equipments as they know in what depth they fish and with what jigs they use from their daily experineces. I fished with them in those years.

    However jigging is evolving. Paty boats mates start to use expensive color coded PE lines as they can not tolerate when biginners outfish them with colored lines.:) Many mates and Capts attended my jigging sessions of Canyon Runner seminars not because they think I am a better jig fisherman, but they want to learn other kind of jigging which they are not familiar with.

    I experimented with short jigging rods and traditional long jigging rods last 4 - 5 years. As I go tuna jigging trips at least 30 times a year, I must expermented the setups at least on over 100 tuna trips.
    There are advantages of using long rods, but I use Japanese style short rods more and more as they are lighter, easy to jig and easy to fight.
    Calstar 700H?XH is not heavy ( XH weighs about 18 oz) and my custom St Croix 4M76XHF weighs only 12.5 oz which is lighter than heavy model Trevala rods. However short Japanese rods feel much lighter and convenient when jigging. I don't think short Japanese rods will dominate on tuna party boats as long rods also have some advantages on party boats and some are not comfortable of using short rods. But more fishermen will realize the benefit of short rods for jigging.

    Many jig fishermen favor fast action rods with lighter tip as they believe they can give more action to the jig with lighter tip section.
    But I am not one of them. I prefer parabolic action rods for tuna and parabolic action rods have thicker tip than fast action rods with same lure weight rating. I use my custom 500g Jigging Master mostly for tuna whereever I go and Jigging Master rod is parabolic. With normal 200g - 250 g jigs, I can give any action to the jig I like and I never felt I get less bites because I use the 500g parabolic rod with thicker tip than guys who use fast action rods with lighter tips. Even with heavy parabolic Japanese style jigging rods, the size of tip is usually 10 or less and it can give enough action to the jigs.
     
  18. TBaker

    TBaker Senior Member

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    Kevin:
    Absolutely correct about quality of fisherman, quality of gear, and which is more important. I probably fall into the crossover group. Have grown up and spent many years with the traditional e-glass setups. In fact, you built most of my current "traditional" rods, as well as at least one for Bret (bretabaker, my son). (Beautiful rods, btw.) But I've also started seriously jigging in the last 18 mos. or so. Love the new stuff, as well. Pros and cons, largely dictated by intended use and personal preference.

    Turns out I may be in your 'hood on Sat. If you're around the shop, would love to stop by.
     
  19. jig42na

    jig42na Spinal Rods

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    Here's more food for thought, I think. Its not just a jigging thing. Every aspect of fishing is more enjoyable with smaller and lighter gear. Since the introduction of braided lines, every thing has moved in this direction. I use my 500g jigging rod for life lining live bluefish and bunker for tuna, sharks, what ever. These technologies are going to eventually win over crowds in the LR boats. Think about it, I love calsstars and seekers, but they collect dust now in my garage. I have blanks that weigh a fraction, have better actions, and the rod can still dead lift 60lbs. What more could you ask for? Fly rods were the first to get in on the trend. They need to keep the gear fether light but not break when high sticking. Now they are making 10weight fly rods that can pick up 20lbs off the ground. Cool stuff.
     
  20. Kevin Bogan

    Kevin Bogan Banned

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    A lot of good comments. Kil, you could catch fish in a bathtub. T baker, I'm here on Saturday. I have noticed that most guys in this sport appear to be able to afford good equipment, Someone buys a particular rod/reel etc and if they dont like it, hey, buy another one. Jig42na has a few that others would love to have and they sit in the garage.
    Nev, I thought your numbers were typo'ed but you no doubt are on top of it.
    I just assumed you were talking .500 or .600 base diameter, Very good explanation, thanks!