Rigging leaders

Discussion in 'Jigging and Popping' started by Albiemanmike, Jul 12, 2009.

  1. Albiemanmike

    Albiemanmike Senior Member

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    OK so I got the needles and they have been a godsend when rigging with the JB Hollow. What I had been doing was splicing the braid into the JB several feet then splicing the mono leader of choice into the other end of the JB and then serving the two ends for casting purposes. I got to thinking about how big a pain in the ass it would be to have to re-rig this setup on the water, not impossible but difficult at best. So I thought about the next best way to do this. I figured i could rig up the leader portions with JB pre-spliced onto the mono and have a spliced loop in the JB. Then I spliced the braided main line on the rod with JB that has also been spliced with an end loop. Now I can make up plenty of leaders ahead of time and just connect via loop to loop connection.

    Does anybody do it this way?? Or does everybody already do it this way and I am just a knucklehead who is finally catching on????:D

    When creating the end loops how much JB should i be splicing back up into itself to create the loop? I have been splicing it about 1.5-2 ft. back into itself and it seems as though any more would be overkill as it seems to hold strong. Maybe a dab of glue where the tag end is just for good measure???

    I tried to double the JB back inside itself then create the end loop with the doubled 80 lb. JB but could not get the doubled line to splice back into itself. I was thinking that doubling it would be better and stronger and i think Basil does this with his windon's but I could not figure out the technique to make it work. Anyway being laid up for a few days has me doing rigging stuff to pass the time and it is a hell of lot more fun with the right tools to say the least.
     
  2. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    OK so I got the needles and they have been a godsend when rigging with the JB Hollow. What I had been doing was splicing the braid into the JB several feet then splicing the mono leader of choice into the other end of the JB and then serving the two ends for casting purposes. I got to thinking about how big a pain in the ass it would be to have to re-rig this setup on the water, not impossible but difficult at best. So I thought about the next best way to do this. I figured i could rig up the leader portions with JB pre-spliced onto the mono and have a spliced loop in the JB. Then I spliced the braided main line on the rod with JB that has also been spliced with an end loop. Now I can make up plenty of leaders ahead of time and just connect via loop to loop connection.

    Does anybody do it this way?? Or does everybody already do it this way and I am just a knucklehead who is finally catching on????:D

    When creating the end loops how much JB should i be splicing back up into itself to create the loop? I have been splicing it about 1.5-2 ft. back into itself and it seems as though any more would be overkill as it seems to hold strong. Maybe a dab of glue where the tag end is just for good measure???

    I tried to double the JB back inside itself then create the end loop with the doubled 80 lb. JB but could not get the doubled line to splice back into itself. I was thinking that doubling it would be better and stronger and i think Basil does this with his windon's but I could not figure out the technique to make it work. Anyway being laid up for a few days has me doing rigging stuff to pass the time and it is a hell of lot more fun with the right tools to say the least.

    You sound as if you're making a good start. Here are some comments:

    1) Pre make the leaders with an end-loop on them, that's the best way. You have to make the end-loop per the BHP Tackle and Blackwater International sites. It won't last if you don't. It won't take that long to learn and when you do it is easy. Either that or you have to use a double wall of Spectra on the splice and double Serve it, which is harder and more time consuming.

    2) The Spectra to mono/fluoro Serve requires care also. See my post in the tackle section: Hollow Spectra ... Commercial Wind-Ons. On the best leaders, the SERVE can carry 100% of the load and the SPLICE is a backup.

    How are you serving the solid Spectra to hollow Spectra?

    Good luck with it.
    PF
     

  3. Basil

    Basil Site Sponsor

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    When creating the end loops how much JB should i be splicing back up into itself to create the loop?

    Mike, it's not a matter of simply pulling the tag end back inside the mainline. You need to take the extra step of turning the loop portion of the line inside out, then burying the tag. If you have reverse latch needles here is how to do it.

    You can also make your own inexpensive loop puller from 32lb wire. Cut a 4-foot piece, bend it in half and pinch the bend with a needle-nose plier. Follow these steps to properly create an end loop that cannot fail.

    Or, if you have a regular latch needle, here is the tutorial for correctly making a spliced end loop. NOTE STEP 3: Turning the line inside out.

    The method of simply pulling the tag end back inside the main line can, and will, fail.
     
  4. Albiemanmike

    Albiemanmike Senior Member

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    The serves are the biggest PIA IMHO but I can do them without much fuss it is just very time consuming. I use a fly tying bobbin and either flat waxed nylon for tying flies or the spectra serving thread I got from Basil. he serving thread is much thicker than the tying thread but seems to be a bit stronger as it is spectra. I will have to check again on the BHP site and the Blackwater site to be sure I am doing the loops correctly. Thanks PF.
     
  5. John_Madison CT

    John_Madison CT Senior Member

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    Mike,

    All my reels are set up using pre-looped leaders and connected via the Basil recommended double loop to loop connections. I have had to change them on the water and it's very easy.

    John
     
  6. Albiemanmike

    Albiemanmike Senior Member

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    Basil,
    Thanks for the tips. I am a little baffled though on the pulling the line inside out idea? What is the difference between splicing the tag end up inside the main spectra trace and pulling the line the way the guy did in the video. The end result is still the same line inside line using finger cuff principle to keep it all together. The only thing I can feather out in my brain is that the finger cuff strength is enhanced by running the line inside out thereby increasing the force of the braided strands upon the inner line. Am I on the right track with all of this??? I was reading the tutorials on your site and it sounded like you double the spectra and then use the doubled spectra to create your loop which sounded to me to be a very good way of doubling the strength of the loop itself. You would in essense have a loop that is double walled and thereby is double the strength of a single wall cuff. What I did was create a loop the normal way but pulled it completely through so the loop was gone. Then I just snipped off the very end where the loop had been, this gave me a length of double walled spectra. The problem came in when I tried to splice the thick double walled spectra back into itself again. The added thickness made it impossible to run that thickness back up inside of itself. I have not tried it with the 100 lb. JB but think this might work with the heavier JB but won't know until I test it out. I am going out to the garage to test out your method and see if I can figure out why it is better than just simply splicing it back into itself. Not questioning your expertise by any means but I am a technical guy who needs to understand things as well as be able to do them. In any event no biggie I can redo the leaders I have already made quite easily without having to go back to the beginning so that is a plus.
     
  7. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    The serves are the biggest PIA IMHO but I can do them without much fuss it is just very time consuming. I use a fly tying bobbin and either flat waxed nylon for tying flies or the spectra serving thread I got from Basil. he serving thread is much thicker than the tying thread but seems to be a bit stronger as it is spectra. I will have to check again on the BHP site and the Blackwater site to be sure I am doing the loops correctly. Thanks PF.

    When you get done with a leader, I would take the end loop and put it over something that weighs 75% or the line rating, say 60 lbs. on an 80 lb. leader; or 75 lbs. on a 100 lb. leader.

    Safety First: Wearing safety glasses and leather gloves, I would wind 10 turns of the mono/fluoro (6" before the Serve) around a short piece of broom handle, and very slowly lift the weight off the floor 20 times. That will tell you how good your Serve is.

    When I perform this test on BHP leaders (and the ones I make myself too), the Serve stays intact, and the Mono/fluoro doesn't inch out of the Serve. You'll probably destroy one but it will help you build something you're really confident in.
     
  8. Basil

    Basil Site Sponsor

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    The end result is still the same line inside line using finger cuff principle to keep it all together.

    No sir, it is not the same. With the loop portion of the line turned inside out, the buried tag end pulls against the loop, in opposite directions. You'd have to break the line in order to pull it apart. With the method you're using, it is a simple matter to pull the tag end right out, no matter how deep you bury it. Check out Mark Miller's video on the proper method.
     
  9. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

    1,386
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    The end result is still the same line inside line using finger cuff principle to keep it all together.

    No sir, it is not the same. With the loop portion of the line turned inside out, the buried tag end pulls against the loop, in opposite directions. You'd have to break the line in order to pull it apart. With the method you're using, it is a simple matter to pull the tag end right out, no matter how deep you bury it. Check out Mark Miller's video on the proper method.

    Basil is 100% correct, as you'd expect.

    Think of it this way. The inside/out portion is splicing the tag onto the main line. When you bury the tag, that is Serving the inside/out splice. Believe it or not, the inside/out portion carries 90% plus of the load.

    When you do it the BHP way it never breaks or comes apart.
     
  10. Albiemanmike

    Albiemanmike Senior Member

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    I did a bunch of them that way after my last post to see what it was all about and I can understand a little better now why it would be a better connection than a simple splice inside itself. So I went and re-did all the ones I had done already...:( But no biggie I know now I have nothing to worry about. I am wondering about how to do the serves quicker?? I am currently doing them with the splices stretched and held in place taut, then using fly tying bobbin to create the serves which seem to come out very well this way but it is very time consuming doing it this way. I was looking at the Beiter Profi that Basil sells and was wondering if anyone uses this tool and if it makes doing the serves any faster. I asked Basil about this and he said if I am getting it done with the bobbin etc. then to just keep doing it that way as I was trying to save a little ching when I made my purchase. Any tricks to doing the serves faster???
     
  11. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

    1,386
    30
    I did a bunch of them that way after my last post to see what it was all about and I can understand a little better now why it would be a better connection than a simple splice inside itself. So I went and re-did all the ones I had done already...:( But no biggie I know now I have nothing to worry about. I am wondering about how to do the serves quicker?? I am currently doing them with the splices stretched and held in place taut, then using fly tying bobbin to create the serves which seem to come out very well this way but it is very time consuming doing it this way. I was looking at the Beiter Profi that Basil sells and was wondering if anyone uses this tool and if it makes doing the serves any faster. I asked Basil about this and he said if I am getting it done with the bobbin etc. then to just keep doing it that way as I was trying to save a little ching when I made my purchase. Any tricks to doing the serves faster???

    You got a GREAT fish the other day, was it on one of these leaders you made? What was the length, line strength, etc.? What condition was the leader in after the fight? You mentioned the fish was tail wrapped. Was it all mono/fluoro around the tail or was there some braid?
     
  12. Albiemanmike

    Albiemanmike Senior Member

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    PFisher,
    It was on one of my rigged windon's and it worked like a charm. I have not had a chance to really check the leader other than to cut the line after decking the fish as it had the sluggo all the way down it's gullet. But I can assure you there is no way there is ever going to be any braid touching any fish I hook. My windon's are 12+ ft of mono looped to 5 ft. of JB spliced to the braid. My only concern was the loop to loop connection, I wasn't sure that the loops wouldn't cut into themselves but they held up fine at least until i can inspect better tomorrow. If I find anything weird I will let you know. I also went up to 100 lb. Jinkai mono for the leader and very glad i did as there was mono in this fishes mouth and the fish had some serious dentures for a tuna. If I had been running the 80 lb. I am not convinced the outcome would have been the same.
     
  13. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    30
    PFisher,
    It was on one of my rigged windon's and it worked like a charm. I have not had a chance to really check the leader other than to cut the line after decking the fish as it had the sluggo all the way down it's gullet. But I can assure you there is no way there is ever going to be any braid touching any fish I hook. My windon's are 12+ ft of mono looped to 5 ft. of JB spliced to the braid. My only concern was the loop to loop connection, I wasn't sure that the loops wouldn't cut into themselves but they held up fine at least until i can inspect better tomorrow. If I find anything weird I will let you know. I also went up to 100 lb. Jinkai mono for the leader and very glad i did as there was mono in this fishes mouth and the fish had some serious dentures for a tuna. If I had been running the 80 lb. I am not convinced the outcome would have been the same.

    Great job with the leader! Try and see if the glue has let go or the Serve has moved.

    Even a single loop-to-loop connection is better than the best knot.

    Here's how to look at it: The tension in the end loop is only 50% of the line tension (aren't line doublers great?). So if your drag is up to 30 lbs., the tension in the loop is only 15 lbs., it's like magic.

    So if a loop to loop were a 60% knot but the line doubler reduced the pressure by 50%, the math would say it is 120% of actual breaking strength. Of course it can't be better than 100%.

    The facts that a spliced End Loop connection doubles the line with no loss of strength, is tiny and goes through the guides cleanly, and can be opened and reconnected in a minute are some of the reasons why I'm such a big hollow fan.

    You'll find the end loop is fine.