Line Strength Selection

Discussion in 'Tackle and Rigging' started by pametfisher, Nov 24, 2008.

  1. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

    1,387
    30
    For Bluefin Tuna fishing

    I have to choose line for next year to load on a Shimano 20K. I'm trying to choose between 60# and 80# test. I will probably go with hollow core for the loop strength in place of knots. With the 60#, I have gotten a static load of about 65# and would expect to get 85# static load with the 80# test.

    That said, at an initial drag setting of 22 pounds, I think the drag would build to 35 pounds after 300 yards of line had been run off with 60# test. I'm guessing the reel will hold about 550 yards of 60#.

    And with 80# test the drag would build to about to about 35 pounds after about 200 yards. I'm guessing 380 total yards of line.

    Any opinions about which strength line and why would be really appreciated since I don't have experience yet with the higher drag pressures.

    Thanks,
     
  2. BretABaker

    BretABaker Guest

    id recommend 80. if you can use 22-24lbs of drag, you should be fine other than for a giant.
     

  3. lordhell

    lordhell Moderator

    4,747
    61
    What drags would you recommend for giants Bret, supposing that 22-24 lbs is insufficient?
     
  4. Sea Crappie

    Sea Crappie Senior Member

    366
    0
    A couple of things......

    I would recommend against using hollow core on a spinner. Me and others have found that it produces alot more wind knots than regular spectra. Learn to tie a mid-knot or a P-R knot to connect the spectra to mono.

    I would go with 80lb as it provides a margin of error. If you're really concerned about capacity, buy high quality line like Varivas, where you can get a PE6 diameter that tests over 80lbs.

    I wouldn't worry too much about 30lbs+ of drag. That much drag on a long popping rod exerts an immense force on the angler. In fact there are very few popping rods in the world that are meant to fish 35lbs of drag. People talk alot about fishing high drag pressures, but the reality is that on a popping rod it is very very difficult to consistently apply over 25lbs of drag. This takes alot of practice and experience to make a rod work for you under such loads as opposed to work against you.

    Static testing of the line is fine, but the point of failure will almost assuredly be a connection, line to leader, leader to lure or hook to fish (barring failure from abrasion).
     
  5. BretABaker

    BretABaker Guest

    for a giant on a spinning setup you'll just get lucky. As far as I know, Andy's tuna is the biggest i know of on a popping setup (actually used a 6k with 8k spool). If you're talking giants over 400lbs...then good luck, lol. bluefin pull extremely hard...i can't imagine what a 400lber would feel like!

    many people say they use 80s and 130s for giants but don't normally have too much drag and rely on line capacity. ive never fished for giants.
     
  6. BretABaker

    BretABaker Guest

    Static testing of the line is fine, but the point of failure will almost assuredly be a connection, line to leader, leader to lure or hook to fish (barring failure from abrasion).
    i agree. make sure to check your line after fighting a fish, especially if you think it might have rubbed on the boat at all. this seems 'obvious'...but everyone gets lazy. ;)
     
  7. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

    1,387
    30
    i agree. make sure to check your line after fighting a fish, especially if you think it might have rubbed on the boat at all. this seems 'obvious'...but everyone gets lazy. ;)

    Okay, thanks for all the good advice so far. I'm very good with the knots you mentioned, it's just that they all break lower than spliced end-loops and a loop-to-loop connection. I noticed that Momoi makes a coated hollow-core, I wonder if that would lead to fewer wind knots.

    On the wind knot topic, do you think that you're getting line twist?

    The 35# of drag that I'm talking about is when you set 22# (yes, with a scale, though the rod guides) and then your fish draws off 200 yards of line. At that point on a Stella 20K the drag is about 35#.
     
  8. rtran

    rtran Senior Member

    1,579
    3
    Depending where you are fishing. For shallow waters I say stella 20k with PE6 is fine. With deep I'd say the new twin spin with 100#
     
  9. Sea Crappie

    Sea Crappie Senior Member

    366
    0
    Okay, thanks for all the good advice so far. I'm very good with the knots you mentioned, it's just that they all break lower than spliced end-loops and a loop-to-loop connection. I noticed that Momoi makes a coated hollow-core, I wonder if that would lead to fewer wind knots.

    On the wind knot topic, do you think that you're getting line twist?

    The 35# of drag that I'm talking about is when you set 22# (yes, with a scale, though the rod guides) and then your fish draws off 200 yards of line. At that point on a Stella 20K the drag is about 35#.

    Never had a midknot or p-r knot break, and since I don't like to cast hollowcore, I guess it's a stick-with-what-works kinda thing. I've pulled over 60lbs on my midknot-mono connection while testing at home and it's always held. If it breaks at 65lbs (80%), that's fine since I'll never have that much pressure on a fish.

    It's not line twist. I don't know why it happens. My other problem is that it just doesn't seem to cast nearly as well (windknots aside) as lines like Varivas, or even just plain ol' tuff line.

    I know what you're talking about with the drag increasing, the point is that you shouldn't have to worry about pulling 35#'s consistently. Most folks adjust the drag on their spinners (just like on a lever drag) during the fight to suit the conditions. Obviously, if you've lost alot of line you should back the drag off.

    What rod are you using?


    I'm jealous, wish we had medium sized bluefin down here in the GOM.

    Good luck and let us know what you decide on.
     
  10. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

    1,387
    30
    Never had a midknot or p-r knot break, and since I don't like to cast hollowcore, I guess it's a stick-with-what-works kinda thing. I've pulled over 60lbs on my midknot-mono connection while testing at home and it's always held. If it breaks at 65lbs (80%), that's fine since I'll never have that much pressure on a fish.

    It's not line twist. I don't know why it happens. My other problem is that it just doesn't seem to cast nearly as well (windknots aside) as lines like Varivas, or even just plain ol' tuff line.

    I know what you're talking about with the drag increasing, the point is that you shouldn't have to worry about pulling 35#'s consistently. Most folks adjust the drag on their spinners (just like on a lever drag) during the fight to suit the conditions. Obviously, if you've lost alot of line you should back the drag off.

    What rod are you using?


    I'm jealous, wish we had medium sized bluefin down here in the GOM.

    Good luck and let us know what you decide on.

    I'd like to get my setup so that I can just "let 'em run" and not worry about the drag build up. That way as they took off horizontally, I could point the rod tip out with only a little loading of the rod and let the drag do the work. So I think I need 80#. But I can get 65# break with the JB 60#, hence my uncertainty.

    My rods from this year are St. Croix SWS70MHF. I've hung 30 pounds off them out the window but on that rod my hands are 22" from the butt and with the 30# hanging and the rod butt horizontal the tip is about 59" out. That means the force on my hand is about 80#--all I can manage. All that said, I'd like a better rod for the lifting phase below the boat. Any suggestions?

    Maybe I'll load 80# JB onto the reel and see what I think. I'm going to have a look at the line you recommended. What do you think about the Daiwa 8-strand?
     
  11. ksong

    ksong SPONSOR

    11,826
    1,419
    For Bluefin Tuna fishing

    I have to choose line for next year to load on a Shimano 20K. I'm trying to choose between 60# and 80# test. I will probably go with hollow core for the loop strength in place of knots. With the 60#, I have gotten a static load of about 65# and would expect to get 85# static load with the 80# test.

    That said, at an initial drag setting of 22 pounds, I think the drag would build to 35 pounds after 300 yards of line had been run off with 60# test. I'm guessing the reel will hold about 550 yards of 60#.

    And with 80# test the drag would build to about to about 35 pounds after about 200 yards. I'm guessing 380 total yards of line.

    Any opinions about which strength line and why would be really appreciated since I don't have experience yet with the higher drag pressures.

    Thanks,

    I judge line ratings by experience, not by statistics.
    Statistics doesn't show the general qualtiy of lines. Some lines break easily as they have bad batches due to poor qualtiy control though they get high marks on lab testing.

    I really don't concern about building drags while as line goes out.
    I always use 25 - 28 percent drag of line rating initially. When I use PE8 (80 lbs), I use 22 - 25 lbs drag. Many fishermen use drag upto 1/3 of line rating initially when line is full on the spool.

    So I would say it is safe you use drag upto 25 lbs initially when you use 80 lbs line on your Stella 20000.
    When a big bluefin took over 250 yards of my Saragosa 18000F, the 80 lbs braided line was OK even I had 25 lbs drag initially.

    The most reliable braided lines made in US I found are JB Hollow line and Tuf line.
     
  12. Deep_Sea_Gull

    Deep_Sea_Gull Lifetime Supporting Members

    740
    54
    My own 2 cents worth....

    I trust Jerry Brown Line One Spectra. Solid line works best for spinners.

    I can pull an end loop in JB solid spectra 65Lb... I have not tried higher test solid "core" lines. I am sure that I can end loop them. The solid core on 65 Lb is more a matter of the outside, woven filaments being joined by a bonding agent. It is not too hard to separate the fibers and pull a loop.

    Also, you can use a short piece of hollow core JB and pull the solid core into it. Serve the connection or use an overhand knot or a Sato crimp.

    Experiment some with the possible connections and find what works for you.
    Make some and then test break them. Then you'll know what works for you.

    Please do report your findings here...
     
  13. rtran

    rtran Senior Member

    1,579
    3
    I agree with Kil. I put the line on and set drag 1/3 of line rating.
     
  14. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

    1,387
    30
    I judge line ratings by experience, not by statistics.
    Statistics doesn't show the general qualtiy of lines. Some lines break easily as they have bad batches due to poor qualtiy control though they get high marks on lab testing.

    I really don't concern about building drags while as line goes out.
    I always use 25 - 28 percent drag of line rating initially. When I use PE8 (80 lbs), I use 22 - 25 lbs drag. Many fishermen use drag upto 1/3 of line rating initially when line is full on the spool.

    So I would say it is safe you use drag upto 25 lbs initially when you use 80 lbs line on your Stella 20000.
    When a big bluefin took over 250 yards of my Saragosa 18000F, the 80 lbs braided line was OK even I had 25 lbs drag initially.

    The most reliable braided lines made in US I found are JB Hollow line and Tuf line.

    You've made some excellent points about line quality--not all products are equally well made, thank you. Just as a point of interest, I calculate that your drag got to 45# or so by the end of that 250 yard run--you must have really been hanging on! I'm hoping for that experience next summer. ;)

    I think I'm going to try the 80# JB even though the 60# would give me a pretty good cushion. (40# max drag, 65# break with direct insert leader). The 80# will give a 100% cushion.
     
  15. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

    1,387
    30
    My own 2 cents worth....

    I trust Jerry Brown Line One Spectra. Solid line works best for spinners.

    I can pull an end loop in JB solid spectra 65Lb... I have not tried higher test solid "core" lines. I am sure that I can end loop them. The solid core on 65 Lb is more a matter of the outside, woven filaments being joined by a bonding agent. It is not too hard to separate the fibers and pull a loop.

    Also, you can use a short piece of hollow core JB and pull the solid core into it. Serve the connection or use an overhand knot or a Sato crimp.

    Experiment some with the possible connections and find what works for you.
    Make some and then test break them. Then you'll know what works for you.

    Please do report your findings here...

    I got the same good results as you with the JB hollow. I spliced an end loop and picked up a 65 pound barbell with it. I'm thinking of serving the leader right into the end.

    Even though I tested the 60# JB I'm going to use the 80# I think, to give myself a 100% margin of error (drag build up to 40#).

    I'll build up an 80# JB loop and pop a few (if I can) and let you know.
     
  16. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

    1,387
    30
    I agree with Kil. I put the line on and set drag 1/3 of line rating.

    Hey Rtran, that 1/3 figure's been around forever. You got me to thinking ...

    I've always wondered where the 1/4 to 1/3 number came from. It's been a rule of thumb since the earliest mono days, probably taking into account 20% overtesting of mono and 40% knot strength (clinch). That would give a system that was about 50% of labeled line strength, with one's drag therefore set (in effect) between 1/2 and 2/3 of ACTUAL EXPECTED breaking strength.

    A quick story, I bought a reel from a nearby fishing store (well known) this summer and part of the deal was "loaded with 50# powerpro". So I get it home, tie a well-made uni-uni to my leader, breaks at 18-20#. So I try several other knots, best I can get is low 20s until I tie a bimini and mid-style. I call up the store and suggest that the line isn't PP or 50#. He says, "all braid is made at the same factory", "its 50#", "set your drag at 14 pounds" and "then what's the problem if it breaks at 18-20#, you've got plenty of margin, "go fish with it, it's not a problem." He was trying to send me tuna fishing with an 18# setup! (Turns out it was 3-strand so it wasn't even PowerPro.)

    I apologize that I'm a bit of a scientist. I do value actual experience more than data which is why I like this forum. I just enjoy dissecting things when I can't fish.

    So back to the 1/4 to 1/3 of line strength idea. (I'm reading a copy of Modern Fishing from Australia. It has a good article on many braids with test results, including 11 brands of 80# braid.

    -The average breaking strength is about 105 pounds.
    -Four brands broke between 79-91 (The IGFA line was right at 79#)
    -Four brands broke between 98-107
    -Three brands broke between 125-140 (Tuf Line XP in this group)

    So it seems to me, among other things, that the 1/4 to 1/3 rule of thumb has to take in many variables.

    -Actual Line strength variation (80# to 125#)
    -Knot performance variation (40% to 90%)
    -Drag build up to 150% of initial drag.

    So all that said with my Stella 20K, Jerry Brown (15% overtest) and loop-to-loop or direct-insert leader and 25# initial drag, 40# built up drag that:

    60# JB would put me at the 2/3 breaking point (40# vs 65# spliced failure)
    80# JB would put me at the 1/2 breaking point (40# vs 85# spliced failure)
    (80# Tuf Line would put me at 1/3 (40# vs 110# with a Bimini and Mid))

    The above is right in the old rule of thumb range. It just depends how lucky I feel. ;)