line angle, burrowing & drag variation on spinning reel

Discussion in 'Tackle and Rigging' started by JayP, Mar 2, 2009.

  1. JayP

    JayP Member

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    Suppose the line roller is high on the spool when drag is pulled. As the spool turns it gets to a point where it's coming off the bottom of the spool, and the line is being pulled at a sharp angle across the other line on the spool. If the line at the bottom of the spool is indented a bit and not lying flat on the spool, when it gets to the bottom it starts to rub against the line next to it that's a bit higher, creating friction and increasing the amount of force on the line required to make the drag turn, thus increasing the effective drag. When this happens it also makes the line burrow in a bit more, further increasing the problem. Does anyone else have problems with this also?

    Not packing the line tightly enough on the spool would make burrowing worse, but I loaded up a Stradic 8000 with 80 lb Daiwa boat braid as tightly as I could reel against, and it is still a big problem - there was at least a 3-4 lb variation in the drag as the line comes off the bottom of the spool vs. the top, and I'm sure it could be even more than that when fighting a fish as surges by the fish could cause even more burrowing. I had never really watched it on a gauge before now, and found it pretty shocking how un-smooth it is. Do you think I'm just not packing the line on tight enough, is it mainly a Stradic problem just not laying the line as evenly as (for example) a Stella, or is this a problem with all spinning reels? If it's a line packing problem, do you pack your line on with a machine?

    It seems to me that the changing angle of the line coming off the spool of any spinning reel would itself require a varying amount of force to obtain the same amount of torque on the spool to make the drag turn, regardless of any line unevenness or any burrowing problems. The angle variation would be worse with a reel having a tall spool or a line roller that's close to the spool, I would think.
     
  2. Bellyups

    Bellyups Senior Member

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    Drag pressure increases significantly as the amount of line decreases on the spool.
     

  3. JayP

    JayP Member

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    Drag pressure increases significantly as the amount of line decreases on the spool.
    True, but what I'm talking about here is when the spool is still full. Maybe it wasn't clear from my post but by "bottom of the spool" I meant the part of the spool that's farthest away from the drag cap...that's where it's really increasing a lot.
     
  4. Bellyups

    Bellyups Senior Member

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    True, but what I'm talking about here is when the spool is still full. Maybe it wasn't clear from my post but by "bottom of the spool" I meant the part of the spool that's farthest away from the drag cap...that's where it's really increasing a lot.

    I misunderstood the statement. Is it harder to pull the line if you are pulling from the tip? I say this as that is the way the line is pulled by the fish. If I am just holding a reel and pulling, I feel a little difference. But if you pull from a point straight out, about 7 feet away, the line takes a very obtuse angle over the spool lip and I think this helps.
     
  5. gimmedeal

    gimmedeal Senior Member

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    I think I undestand what you're talking about and had never given it any thought but I'm sure it does make a difference as far as drag. You're talking about the near side and the far side (lip side) of the spool. It stands to reason that the measured drag would be at its lowest when the line on the spool is being pulled through the roller at a perpendicular and it would take more force to pull the line off further away from perpendicular. As far as line burrowing, I'm not sure properly loaded line would burrow any worse with an incremental increase or decrease in drag. Also, this is a case where a maximum smooth drag (say Stella) and the line coming off very fast (say YF or wahoo) would make these flutuations in drag less noticeable.
    Just watch the tip of your rod as line goes out fast under drag. If drag was fluctuating between say 20 and 24 lbs, the tip of your rod would show that to you. Can't say that I've ever noticed it.

    Fred
     
  6. d-a

    d-a Senior Member

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    Have you changed the drags out? Untill you get carbon drags in there you will see the drag flucations.

    d-a
     
  7. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Suppose the line roller is high on the spool when drag is pulled. As the spool turns it gets to a point where it's coming off the bottom of the spool, and the line is being pulled at a sharp angle across the other line on the spool. If the line at the bottom of the spool is indented a bit and not lying flat on the spool, when it gets to the bottom it starts to rub against the line next to it that's a bit higher, creating friction and increasing the amount of force on the line required to make the drag turn, thus increasing the effective drag. When this happens it also makes the line burrow in a bit more, further increasing the problem. Does anyone else have problems with this also?

    Not packing the line tightly enough on the spool would make burrowing worse, but I loaded up a Stradic 8000 with 80 lb Daiwa boat braid as tightly as I could reel against, and it is still a big problem - there was at least a 3-4 lb variation in the drag as the line comes off the bottom of the spool vs. the top, and I'm sure it could be even more than that when fighting a fish as surges by the fish could cause even more burrowing. I had never really watched it on a gauge before now, and found it pretty shocking how un-smooth it is. Do you think I'm just not packing the line on tight enough, is it mainly a Stradic problem just not laying the line as evenly as (for example) a Stella, or is this a problem with all spinning reels? If it's a line packing problem, do you pack your line on with a machine?

    It seems to me that the changing angle of the line coming off the spool of any spinning reel would itself require a varying amount of force to obtain the same amount of torque on the spool to make the drag turn, regardless of any line unevenness or any burrowing problems. The angle variation would be worse with a reel having a tall spool or a line roller that's close to the spool, I would think.

    A while ago I developed spreadsheets for the Penn 950 ssm and Stella 20000. This top-to-bottom-drag-variation factor was about 10% for the Penn and 13% for the Stella, based on the height and the distance of the roller from the spool. (I've attached a printout from the Stella, PDF. see Cos Angle Factor.)

    Since the full spool to empty spool drag varies by 280%, I felt the 13% factor was not so significant. When you add the "crossing ridges of line" factor, that may increase it further. The variation might be greater for the 8000 due to geometry differences compared to my 20000.

    If you could measure the: inner spool diameter, full spool diameter, spool height (as measured with a full spool), the distance from the roller to where the line is being pulled from the spool (this is fussier to measure since the line comes off further away than the closest distance from roller to spool), and the amount of line on your reel, I'd be happy to plug the numbers into the spreadsheet.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. kidflex

    kidflex Senior Member

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    not enough difference to worry about to me. if its real bad, change out drag washers to carbontex.
     
  9. JayP

    JayP Member

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    pametfisher - that spreadsheet is pretty impressive! I'm willing to accept that the line angle factor is 13% or so, although I think the line digging in and not being level on the spool is adding to it quite a bit...I measured a variation between 14-17 lb, or about 21%. Still, the angle factor could be significant when combined with the spool emptying (decreasing radius) factor, even if the angle effect decreases when the spool empties it could add 5 lb or so to your calculated 70 lb of drag.

    Wow, I knew the drag increases as the spool empties, but 280% is amazing! The torque should be constant to make the drag turn and force = torque / radius so for it to increase by 280% the radius would have to decrease to 1/2.8 or 35% of its full-spool size, which is consistent with your measured radius. I guess that's the main reason why people recommend to set the drag at 1/3 or 1/4 of line strength. An increase from 25 to 70 lb of drag is scary... I wonder how many people adjust their spinning reel drag while fighting a big fish? It seems like it might be better to start at 15-20 lb and then have it ramp up to 42-56 lb at the bottom of the spool.

    kidflex and d-a: This is a stock reel but with Cal's grease applied to the washers. (Mainly to help prevent corrosion, as my last Stradic drag which was supposedly waterproof had horrible corrosion and I had to throw the whole spool out). I will probably upgrade to carbontex though.
     
  10. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    pametfisher - that spreadsheet is pretty impressive! I'm willing to accept that the line angle factor is 13% or so, although I think the line digging in and not being level on the spool is adding to it quite a bit...I measured a variation between 14-17 lb, or about 21%.

    Wow, I knew the drag increases as the spool empties, but 280% is amazing. The torque should be constant to make the drag turn and force = torque / radius so for it to increase by 280% the radius would have to decrease to 1/2.8 or 35% of its full-spool size, which is consistent with your measured radius.

    I guess that's the main reason why people recommend to set the drag at 1/3 or 1/4 of line strength?

    kidflex and d-a: This is a stock reel but with Cal's grease applied to the washers. (Mainly to help prevent corrosion, as my last Stradic drag which was supposedly waterproof had horrible corrosion and I had to throw the whole spool out). I will probably upgrade to carbontex though.

    Right you are. The drag increase is directly proportional to the radius decrease. And the drag-torque stays constant, other than heating effects. Being a skeptic, I pulled 300 yards of line off at a triple soccer field and verified the numbers.

    The drag increase is one reason for the 1/4 to 1/3 recommendation, the other is that most knots (other than Mid, P.R., Bimini, GT, etc.) cut line strength 30-40%. So if you're 80# line tested actually at 80 a Uni Knot or Surgeon's Loop would yield 56 lbs. or so (fortunately the line makers underrate most lines, but not always).

    Speaking of heat, check out the Watt-Minute heat produced by a tuna pulling line off the reel. Is it any wonder that some drags overheat and burn??