Hollow Spectra VI: Windon Leader Field Test Photos

Discussion in 'Tackle and Rigging' started by pametfisher, Aug 11, 2009.

  1. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    The year, several individuals and Charter Captains have been fishing wind-on leaders on their spinning reels as a way to solve the leader problems that can arrive with the demands of bigger fish, heavier mono/fluoro (up to 130# or more) and longer casting rods (like the OTI Tuna Sniper). About a week ago, an 80"-class Bluefin was fought for a long 4 hour 45 minutes with a wind-on that I'd built to be tested. It ended with a broken Owner hook just as the fish was about to be "stuck". (If you are interested in their report, PM me.)

    The key parts of the leaders I'm having tested are: a new small no-glue, no-wrap Serve and a short 12" splice that has been designed for casting distance and to withstand the high speed trips through the guides that come with spin-casting.

    I have had several leaders returned from the Captains using them and after examination, I can see that they are performing well. Because of the duration of the fight and the estimated size of the fish I reported above, this past weekend I got the leader back from them and have been dissecting it to see how it fared. I was interested in whether the Splice or Serve had moved, whether the Loop to Loop had worn, and whether the tag end of the mono had started to chafe the hollow Spectra. I also examined the Triple Surgeon's Loop that they had used for the mainline loop.

    Other than the expected, cosmetic abrasion of the Jinkai mono near the terminal tackle end from rubbing against the fish, the Splice, Serve, loops, and loop to loop were undamaged, photos below.

    The Triple Surgeon's knot used for the mainline loop was solid as a rock and showed no signs of slipping or fatigue.

    Although the results for the Serve and Splice are particular to my design implementation, the single loop to loop connection (which was squeezed to a dot) between the wind-on leader and the triple Surgeon's Loop in the mainline can stand up to a very long fight with a big fish. If you use hollow-weave as your mainline, like I do, a spliced End Loop is even stronger and thinner than the Surgeon's Loop.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Great analysis Pamerfisher, really appreciate your loop to loop series. I am new to it and practicing my leader construction and have a few questions.

    - I have made up a dozen loops in #80 JB using copper 24 gauge wire. I sometimes struggle a bit getting the wire started through the side of the line and after poking through several times finally get it started down the middle. This sometimes results if a few strands, like lite wisps of fuzz, not a major strand or anything. Is this significant to line strength? Should I throw these out and use only the "perfect" ones?

    - I thought i read in earlier posts you were using single wall hollow in your leader splice and serve to leader. It looks like the hollow core is doubled on the leader to serve in below. I this what works best to keep a short splice that is still good for casting?

    Thank you for all your help.

    It's hard to say if the wisps are bad or not but I think they're okay.

    Here's how I look at it. The first (inside/out) splice in an end loop carries all the load so that is the one to get right--of course it's the trickiest too. If the wisps are not a thread, and are where you first insert the needle, that is okay. The reason is because the place where you first put the needle in has very little load when you are done. The tag that you bury (although it's critical) carries almost no load. That second splice really is the Serve for the first splice. The key is don't use any if you damage the part of the line that will carry load.

    My hands are large and not super steady. Believe it or not, after you've done this enough, it will get VERY easy. You will make them quickly and perfectly every time. If I can do it, anyone can.

    My leader design is unlike any other. I'm using a special Serve that has no glue and no added top wrapping. I call it a Pressure Serve or for short a PK Serve. That is the reason I can make a short Splice. The Splice is 12" in my case although 3" would work fine. I go to 12" so that I have 100% redundancy with the PK Serve. And yes, good eyes, it is a double-wall splice.

    I have gone with the new design because I wanted a Serve that could carry 100% without glue and top wrapping thread so that it would stand up to a day of aggressive casting and still be 100% when that fish of a lifetime struck. In the case of the 80" BFT I mentioned, the theory worked until the hook broke after a 4 hr. 45 min. fight. --124-3

    If you look in the attached photo, you can see how I've proven to myself where the forces fall. It also let me determine that 3-6" Splice sections (2 per end loop) are more than enough.

    PF
     

    Attached Files:


  3. YMMV

    YMMV Senior Member

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    Not to jump off topic on you but I noticed the "user" used a single loop to loop connection. I usually use a double loop to loop. Do you feel a single loop to loop is plenty strong?

    BTW-Excellent read~!
     
  4. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Not to jump off topic on you but I noticed the "user" used a single loop to loop connection. I usually use a double loop to loop. Do you feel a single loop to loop is plenty strong?

    BTW-Excellent read~!

    Thanks.

    You are right on topic with this question. The strength and durability of a single loop-to-loop was one of the primary things I was trying to demonstrate. I think it is impressive that such a large fish could be fought for so long with NO wear on the End Loops.

    I will stick my neck out and say that: 1) The single is just as strong as a double, triple or quadruple; and 2) the single loop-to-loop is better because it is easier to equalize the legs, a key to strength. Also, the single is easier to get apart.

    On the strength point, the tension in an End Loop is exactly half the tension in the line. That means that even if a loop-to-loop is a 60% connection, the overall effect is 100% strong--60% divided by half the loop tension equals 120%, which is to say 100% strong. This is why I have focused on the quality of the End Loop in my Hollow Spectra V posting. The best thing you can do for a quick to change leader system is to put a quality End Loop on your mainline.
     
  5. YMMV

    YMMV Senior Member

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    Thank you very much for the reply. :)

    I def have noticed that it is easier to equalize both legs on the loop to loop on a single vs a double. That was one of the problems I had when I first started to use loop to loop. I am still using a double loop to loop because I was worried that a single wouldnt be as strong. I def think I will try the single loop to loop next outting. Thank you again.

    Thanks.

    You are right on topic with this question. The strength and durability of a single loop-to-loop was one of the primary things I was trying to demonstrate. I think it is impressive that such a large fish could be fought for so long with NO wear on the End Loops.

    I will stick my neck out and say that: 1) The single is just as strong as a double, triple or quadruple; and 2) the single loop-to-loop is better because it is easier to equalize the legs, a key to strength. Also, the single is easier to get apart.

    On the strength point, the tension in an End Loop is exactly half the tension in the line. That means that even if a loop-to-loop is a 60% connection, the overall effect is 100% strong--60% divided by half the loop tension equals 120%, which is to say 100% strong. This is why I have focused on the quality of the End Loop in my Hollow Spectra V posting. The best thing you can do for a quick to change leader system is to put a quality End Loop on your mainline.
     
  6. John_Madison CT

    John_Madison CT Senior Member

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    Basil showed me a very simple way to make the 4 lines of the double loop to loop even. Stick your pinky in the hole between the loops and slowly snug both the leader and mainline. Gently pull and they even out. You can wiggle your finger out at the end and they come together perfectly.

    That being said, if someone can prove to me that a single loop is just as strong and durable as a double, I'd be glad to convert as a single is much easier to get apart.
     
  7. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Basil showed me a very simple way to make the 4 lines of the double loop to loop even. Stick your pinky in the hole between the loops and slowly snug both the leader and mainline. Gently pull and they even out. You can wiggle your finger out at the end and they come together perfectly.

    That being said, if someone can prove to me that a single loop is just as strong and durable as a double, I'd be glad to convert as a single is much easier to get apart.

    I'll take the bait so to speak:

    Argument 1
    If the tension in an end loop is exactly half the tension in a mainline, and it must be ...

    And if a loop-to-loop connection is as bad as 60% strong ...

    Given those two things, you have a 100% connection.

    How much better than 100% could a double loop-to-loop be?

    Argument 2
    If a loop-to-loop connection is best when each of the four legs carries exactly 50% of the load ...

    And if a single loop to loop connection equalizes the load better than a double ...

    Isn't a single loop to loop more likely to be slightly stronger?

    Argument 3
    If multiple loop-to-loops transfer the load in the twists, just like a Bimini Twist ...

    It should take about 20-30 times through to get enough friction build up from the twists ...

    Argument 4
    In lab testing, I have never broken a single loop to loop connection at less than the Actual Breaking Strength of the weakest line.

    Argument 5
    The Owner Hook broke before the loop-to-loop in the pictures above ...;)

    Argument 6
    It is the 180 degree reversal of the loop that creates the stress concentration and fracture point ...

    One twist or two twists, the stress concentration is still at 180 degree reversal.

    Man, am I argumentative or what ...
     
  8. Stryper

    Stryper Senior Member

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    Being a newbie on this site, Why don't you folks just run your topshot/leader flouro/mono straight into your braid/spectra.?
    I really would like to know,as we do catch some fish out here in SoCal and that seems to be the current method.
    And I am not trying to be a smrtass, I really am curious as to the reasoning.
    and am always open to ways to catch more fish.
     
  9. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Being a newbie on this site, Why don't you folks just run your topshot/leader flouro/mono straight into your braid/spectra.?
    I really would like to know,as we do catch some fish out here in SoCal and that seems to be the current method.
    And I am not trying to be a smrtass, I really am curious as to the reasoning.
    and am always open to ways to catch more fish.

    Just some random thoughts ...

    Are you referring to spin casting setups? If you are, can you reduce your Splice to 6-12" for good casting? Here where I fish, it's not uncommon to replace a couple leaders for each rod for each trip.

    Some people in the CCB area do "direct splice" for conventional reels with 200' topshots for GBFT.

    If your leader gets damaged, or your line. Then what? Also, you can go lighter or heavier, or switch between mono and fluoro, even longer or shorter leaders. (Maybe the simple answer is that we have Bluefish here that are ever present, leading to lots of nicked leaders.)

    Since a single Loop-to-Loop connection is as strong as the line, why not have the option, on the water, to switch or replace?

    From a design standpoint, your mainline should be chosen based on reel capacity and drag power. The leader should be chosen for stealth, stretch, strength, abrasion resistance, etc. Those factors can change as you change target species. L2L gives you "plug'n'play" capability.

    Lastly, if you use L2L leaders, you can have your terminal tackle pre-tied and pre-tested, and have spares. That means, for example, for 130# leaders you could pre-tie a solid ring or swivel, and pre-load the knot to 60-80 lbs. to set it. Something that is harder to do well when the bite is on and you're in a hurry. I know we can all tie knots in mono/fluoro pretty fast and pretty well, but I've seen several good fish lost this year to knots tied on the water--maybe the fish were large, maybe it was the luck of the draw, maybe the knots weren't set well, who knows?
     
  10. fishordie

    fishordie Senior Member

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    Here on the West Coast we have been using pre fashioned wind ons for many years. In my case not quite as long as Basil made my first ones and sent them to me in 2005. He then showed me how to make them per his technique(double Wall) when we fished together that season. I have been a strict convert ever since.

    Out here we have the same arguement about ease of a loop to loop attachment for premades vs. an inline splice on an already made up top shot.
    The loop to loop are fast and simple to change out or undo the connection.
    For those of you trying to pick away at the loop to loop try pulling the mainline, from either side of the cats paw (Loop to loop knot) until you feel the knot pop open. This takes about 2 seconds as the line completely loosens up on all portions of the knot. You can then either cut the spectra from the wind on and remove the small tags remaining attached to your main line or simply take the wind on and go back through the now open loop so you may reuse that top shot in the future with no damage done due to the cats paw. As a note, I only fish hollow spectra for my main lines for both conventional or spinners. This makes the hollow loop in the main line a 100% strong knotless loop. Beats the Bimini, triple surgeons or any other form of creating a loop in the main line hands down.

    In line splices, using no loop in the main line or wind on require the angler to do a hollow in line splice to connect the premade windon to the main line. The idea being this is a knotless connection and windon thus it is a bit stealthier. The draw back being the time it takes to do a hollow, inline splice Vs. a simple catspaw or loop to loop when changing out the topshots..

    I personally have always used a double catspaw which is a very slim and almost unnoticeable connection either on conventionals or spinners. You cannot feel it go through you guides or barely on your fingers.

    As the author notes, I have had zero failures from hundreds of days of giant tuna fishing using these premade windons either from Basil, JaknKona or my own home made units. All three of us use slightly differing methodology to obtain either a double or single walled spectra loop on the wind on but all have been 100% effective. I have mine rigged from 30# test to 300# test and as noted, none have ever failed.

    To this fisherman, who continues to strive to find the best methods to maximize my catch potential, windon technology was a winner from the first time I tried it. No more shock leaders, Plaits, unsightly knots and 100% strong connections every time. I have no idea how the connection geniuses are going to top this method but I look forward to whatever it is. In the mean time, this is the only connections I use, conventional or Spinner, for bigger fish.

    Thank you to the Author for the write up.

    Jamie
     
  11. Aggie82Josh

    Aggie82Josh Senior Member

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    This is awesome. How is the PK serve performed?
     
  12. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    This is awesome. How is the PK serve performed?

    By me ... ;)

    Seriously though, it's something I've been working on for a year so that Spin casting setups can have a wind-on leader that really casts well ... and survives hundreds of trips though the guides at casting speeds. I'm making up a pre-production run of about a hundred units now.
     
  13. SteelingHeads

    SteelingHeads Senior Member

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    This is awesome. How is the PK serve performed?

    Can you say "Patent Pending"??? :D
     
  14. straycatboat

    straycatboat Member

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    As I am new to this splicing of hollow core and want to try it, How do you do the double layer 80lb hollow spectra with the mono inside?
    I cna't seem to get this!
     
  15. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    As I am new to this splicing of hollow core and want to try it, How do you do the double layer 80lb hollow spectra with the mono inside?
    I cna't seem to get this!

    BHP Tackle and Blackwater International have good tutorials on their sites.

    I would start with splicing Spectra to Spectra and then move to mono to Spectra.
     
  16. Bellyups

    Bellyups Senior Member

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    Great write up and post!!
     
  17. peterk814

    peterk814 Senior Member

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    Main flaw in the experiment- you're using jinkai mono lol. In all seriousness. I have tried Jinkai from quite a few spools. It holds for the first fish or two, looks fine, but after its been stretchedout, it snaps.
     
  18. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Main flaw in the experiment- you're using jinkai mono lol. In all seriousness. I have tried Jinkai from quite a few spools. It holds for the first fish or two, looks fine, but after its been stretchedout, it snaps.

    Others have had different experiences with Jinkai and quite good results. It seems everyone has a favorite leader material.

    In this case, the Jinkai leader held an 80"+ fish for 4 hours and 45 minutes. The leader is in perfect shape, good for another 4:45--it was the hook that snapped! :eek:

    However, I would suggest that after each large BFT it would be good practice to change the leader. ;)