360 Tuna Fishers Forum banner
1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,386 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If you are going to use a Wind-On leader with your Spinning reel, one of the choices you face is how to make the loop on your mainline for the loop-to-loop connection between it and the Wind-On leader. (Loop-to-Loop photo below.) The loop-to-loop connection lets you change leaders reliably and quickly, in 6' seas, a 20 knot wind, when the temperature is 50 degrees, at night. And if you have pre-tied swivels/split rings to your spare leaders, there are no knots to be tied when the bite is on.

The mainline loop is a critical part of a loop to loop connection system. Done correctly, the mainline loop is a line-doubler. A well chosen line-doubler reduces the tension of the in the loop by half, with no loss of strength (e.g. if the mainline tension is 40 lbs., the tension in the line inside the loop, is only 20 lbs--almost magic).

Halving the tension in the loops is key to the loop-to-loop connection because the loop-to-loop knot itself is a 60-65% knot. Simple math (and real world testing and experience) says that a 60% efficient knot, running at half of the tension of the mainline, is a 120% connection. Of course 120% is meaningless but it does guarantee you a 100% strong connection--no loss of line strength in the connection. (Note: A single loop-to-loop connection is all that is needed.)

For spinning reels, the ideal mainline loop is:
--thin and without knots so that it does not catch loops of line on the spool, leading to wind-knots;
--sized small so that it can't loop around a guide during casting;
--and does not reduce the strength of the line.

Some examples of mainline loops, photos below:

1. Spliced End-Loop in hollow-weave Spectra. This is a thin, reliable way to form a line-doubler loop. There are no points of stress concentration and it is easy to make perfectly. The spliced End-Loop can be made in any loop size from fractions of an inch to feet. The catch is that you need hollow-weave Spectra.

If you prefer solid-weave Spectra as your mainline, a good alternative is to splice 5 to 10 yards of hollow-weave Spectra on top of the solid-weave and then make a spliced End-Loop. http://www.360tuna.com/forum/f3/glueless-solid-hollow-spectra-splice-full-strength-4389/

2. Bimini Twist (Although the photo shows 50 twists, I recommend 70). Thin and nearly 100% strong, the key to successfully using a Bimini Twist in a loop-to-loop connection is to use enough twists so that each side of the loop can carry 50% of the load. In my testing, that rarely happens below 50 initial twists--I say initial twists because about 60% of the twists you start with are used to create the top wraps, leaving only 40% of the initial twists to hold the connection. In my experience and testing 70 initial-twists is a good number. (Note, the loop-to-loop is a different application than tying a Bimini Twist to a Slim Beauty.) The final lock knot on the tag end of a Bimini should be superglued or it will loosen after a couple hours of casting.

The biggest drawback to the Bimini Twist is that it is difficult to control loop size, and large loops can catch on the guides during casting. More twists means a bigger loop, less twists means a risk of the knot slipping.

3. Surgeon's Loop. This is a quick, reliable, east-to-tie knot. And it is relatively easy to control loop size. The main drawbacks in a spinning reel application are: a) there is stress concentration where the mainline makes its first turn inside the knot, which reduces the strength of the mainline by about 30%, b) it is a knot that can hit the guides, and hang on them, and c) after an hour of casting, when the line on your spool is no longer packed tightly, it can pull wind-knot loops off the spool. The 30% strength loss is not usually a problem in 80# Spectra on a spinning reel, unless the particular line doesn't overtest (e.g. some of the PE lines).

All of the above choices will work, with some having advantages over the others. You can probably tell, I'm a big fan of the spliced End-Loop
 

Attachments

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,386 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Are there problems with the solid mainline braid cutting the hollow spectra when using a loop to loop with bimini in mainline??? That is why I have always shied away from using the bimini as the mainline loop and instead went with spliced end loops, as you know. I am more confident with hollow to hollow loops than solid to hollow loops, if you get my drift.

The simple answer is: there are no problems with solid Spectra cutting hollow Spectra. Here's why--

The materials of hollow-weave Spectra and solid-weave are the same, Gel Spun Polyethylene. The difference is purely how the bobbins move on the weaving machine when the line is made. In the case of solid-weave, the threads are brought across the pattern from time to time, in hollow-weave the bobbins move around the outside and never cross the center.

When put under tension, for all practical purposes, hollow and solid of the same strength are nearly indistinguishable. When I splice an end loop on a piece of Spectra and hang it on a hook, then go back to it in a few days, the tension of hanging makes it hard to find the center at times--that's how easily the "hollow center" disappears. When you're jigging, casting, retrieving or trolling hollow-weave Spectra, the center is fully closed.

Forgetting solid and hollow for a moment, if you take 50 lb. actual breaking strength (ABS) Spectra, and loop it to 80 lb. ABS Spectra and then load it with 50 lbs. or so, the 50 lb. loop will appear to "cut" through the 80 lb. loop. (I've tested this a few times.) But what is actually happening, according to the Materials Science guys I've spoken to, is that the 80 lb. line is being "bent" around the much thinner 50 lb. line and is fracturing. But this type of breaking is merely an example of a 50 lb. line, connected to an 80 lb. line, breaking at 50 lbs.--just what you would expect.

The biggest problem that I've seen and heard about with Bimini's in casting loop-to-loop connections, is the Bimini loop (which can be a few inches in diameter) opening and wrapping around the stripper guide--followed by an abrupt break-off or lure flying back your way. It is hard, if not impossible, to make a 50-turn Bimini in Spectra that is as small as an inch in diameter. That's one of the reasons I like hollow-weave for loops.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
781 Posts
Just put some hollow on your last 20-30 yards of line and splice in your topshot. And eliminate all the Bimini/loop2loop BS. Then you never have to worry if any of the loop legs are carrying more load than the other 3 legs.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
723 Posts
Just put some hollow on your last 20-30 yards of line and splice in your topshot. And eliminate all the Bimini/loop2loop BS. Then you never have to worry if any of the loop legs are carrying more load than the other 3 legs.

If I understand your method correctly though, no loop to loop means either splicing or knots on the water when changing out leaders. Am I misunderstanding you?
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,386 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
If I understand your method correctly though, no loop to loop means either splicing

Yes, unbroken TRUE 100% connection Blackwater International - The World's Finest Fishing Line - Tech Tips - Hollow Braid Splice Connection

or knots on the water when changing out leaders.

I am not sure what you mean...by knots on the water

Blackwater advocates connecting windons by loop-to-loop.

Since there is no strength loss in a loop-to-loop (because of the line-doubler effect in a good end loop), it's better than directly splicing mono/fluoro to your mainline since there is a huge advantage to being able to swap leaders on the go.

My post is intended to give some choices and trade-offs for the mainline loop.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
2,924 Posts
I would concur that a loop to loop connection is much better than any other connection while casting especially for tuna where your leader may get banged up from bass or blues. This strongly contradicts everything I once said but I am now a believer in these specific wind ons.

We were in a hot tuna bite, I had just released another large fish but my 130# Streamline Leader paid the price after 3 fish. I was able to cut it off and re loop within a minute I was casting again. No downtime and my next hookup was on this cast. Perfection

I will be splicing onto my mainline a loop in the near future
 

·
Site Sponsor
Joined
·
1,212 Posts
I was able to cut it off and re loop within a minute

I've been advocating this for years, finally someone gets it. L2L is better than any knot, just look at failure rates posted here and many other boards. Do the work, maintain your connection, land the fish.

Thanks,

Basil Pappas
BHP Tackle
73 Norma Road
Harrington Park, NJ 07640

Shop: 201-767-9028
Toll Free: 877-861-2513
BHP Tackle - Wind-On Leaders - Topshots - Fluorocarbon Wind-On Leaders - Hollow Spectra
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
2,924 Posts
I was able to cut it off and re loop within a minute

I've been advocating this for years, finally someone gets it. L2L is better than any knot, just look at failure rates posted here and many other boards. Do the work, maintain your connection, land the fish.

Thanks,

Basil Pappas
BHP Tackle
73 Norma Road
Harrington Park, NJ 07640

Shop: 201-767-9028
Toll Free: 877-861-2513
BHP Tackle - Wind-On Leaders - Topshots - Fluorocarbon Wind-On Leaders - Hollow Spectra

Basil, you are the best and the godfather of this. Your systems have been the absolute standard in the trolling, chunking and overall fishing game for so long. The only place windon leaders havent taking off is with spinning gear primarily because of the length of mono insert and serve as it affects the cast.

With an altered system guys like me who swore I would never use one for casting have now seen the benefits and I will honestly never go back to a PR Knot or any knot for that matter

Hope all is well Basil ... Glenn
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
723 Posts
If I understand your method correctly though, no loop to loop means either splicing

Yes, unbroken TRUE 100% connection Blackwater International - The World's Finest Fishing Line - Tech Tips - Hollow Braid Splice Connection

or knots on the water when changing out leaders.

I am not sure what you mean...by knots on the water

Sorry if my post was confusing Stryper. All i was trying to say is that the Loop to loop is quick and easy when you are out on the water. If you are not using loop to loop you are either trying to splice out on the water when you need to replace a leader, or you are back to weak 40 to 50% strength knots. The loop to loop you can change out your leader much quicker than you can tie or splice, and you have done the splicing in the comfort and warmth of the tying bench vs. pitching and rolling in rain and cold weather.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
2,924 Posts
Basil made me a believer for all my offshore trolling/chunking reels.

Pametfisher is making me a believe on my heavy spinning reels.


John Pametfisher made these specific for spinners and he blew my mind with them. I will not use anything else anymore Im hooked
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,579 Posts
I need to go back and fully understand how this works. By quick glancing I haven't got the concept just yet.
 

·
Member
Joined
·
39 Posts
pametfisher - the wind-on leaders I bought from BHP/Basil came with instruction on the loop-to-loop connection that looked a bit different than the one you pictured...







Any thoughts on this? Do you leave yours as you pictured or make a 3rd pass?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,569 Posts
Hawgs I might be wrong but please correct if I am (Pametfisher). Those loops connections are orientated to trolling mostly , as you can see on the mainline shows a bimini knot & the loop to loop its looped three times over. JMO
I think thats called a cats paw.
My understanding was it made the connection easier to take apart to change leaders...
I don't like passing through to I just use a loop to loop straight.
 

·
Junior member
Joined
·
31 Posts
I just ordered some of Basils Windons yesterday. Thanks for clarifying the loop to loop question as I wasn't following the Cat's Paw knot example very well.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
781 Posts
This is interesting to read, we out here in SoCal usually just weave our premade windon into our hollow spectra. Or just cut off the old one and run another shot of flouro up and crimp it < 5 minutes. But spinning reels are still relativley rare on most LR boats.
 

·
Site Sponsor
Joined
·
1,212 Posts
Stryper's different approach would be eliminate loops completely. If you are handy at splicing, make your wind-on: short-insert, single wall, small serve. Leave a 2-foot hollow spectra tag off the back of the wind-on and just splice this hollow end directly into your hollow main line. If you are using 60lb hollow main line, splice a short section of 80lb hollow to make the splice easy. Now you've eliminated loops and knots. If you know how to serve properly, there could not be a cleaner spinning leader. I've made many wind-ons like this for west-coast, specifically shops in northern California that all request them this way.

Basil Pappas
BHP Tackle
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,386 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Stryper's different approach would be eliminate loops completely. If you are handy at splicing, make your wind-on: short-insert, single wall, small serve. Leave a 2-foot hollow spectra tag off the back of the wind-on and just splice this hollow end directly into your hollow main line. If you are using 60lb hollow main line, splice a short section of 80lb hollow to make the splice easy. Now you've eliminated loops and knots. If you know how to serve properly, there could not be a cleaner spinning leader. I've made many wind-ons like this for west-coast, specifically shops in northern California that all request them this way.

Basil Pappas
BHP Tackle

Point-Counter Point ;)

I have thought about this as an alternative and it would be very smooth, no question. However, on the water, after a bluefish has banged up your leader or a tuna has worn it you really want to change quickly. (And I would argue you want your swivel/split ring already on and tied before the trip.) The Line to Line splice seems to me to be too slow to perform "on the battlefield."

A single L2L knot in 60 to 80# braid is so tiny that it does not in any way interfere with casting. The key is to keep the mainline and leader end-loop small so that they can't get caught on a guide. My experience on spinning reels suggests that loops smaller than 2" are fine.
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Top