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Discussion in '360 Degrees Lounge' started by HungryJack, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. HungryJack

    HungryJack Member

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    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
  2. buddyclaude

    buddyclaude Senior Member

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    Nice report. Thanks for spreading the word.

    I make the observation of the division of recreational quota among private/charter/for hire/ headboat. At least the group gets more than the commercial quota.

    It sounds like a positive step for the red grouper population/biomass. Management can be a slow process and unpopular sometimes.
     
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  3. GARRIGA

    GARRIGA Senior Member

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    Less made available to take by placing unsubstantiated restrictions, therefore, less go out to take, resulting in less being taken but that doesn’t me less were available to be taken.

    Clever spin management. Got to hand them that. Bravo. Job well done.

    Meanwhile small businesses starve and go out of business. All because Kansas wants fillets. :(
     
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  4. GARRIGA

    GARRIGA Senior Member

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    They don’t know how to fish?
     
  5. lite-liner

    lite-liner troll enforcement Staff Member

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    perhaps they were busy catching red snapper?
    perhaps RG not selling real good, low demand equals low wholesale prices.
    that converts to more attention to higher-paying species
    could be any number of things, but I doubt very highly it's because the comm's couldn't
    find enough red grouper around florida to fill their quotas. if that was the case, that data would most likely reflect in rec catches, too. (from an overall standpoint)
     
  6. lite-liner

    lite-liner troll enforcement Staff Member

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    I have a very hard time believing in numbers like that stemming from rec overfishing.
    a species in a given geographical area cannot just crash to the point that commercial harvest declines 95% over one calender year without other factors rearing their heads.
    I would suggest you look at market manipulation more than species decline.
    those #'s don't make sense.
    but I'm just a mechanic, WTF do I know...........
     
  7. lite-liner

    lite-liner troll enforcement Staff Member

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    ok, stat man. what was whole weight catch for recs in 2016?
    or is it estimated (like red snapper) because of poor participation?
     
  8. lite-liner

    lite-liner troll enforcement Staff Member

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    those are 2016 prices, not 2017.
    the drop you quoted was 2017 numbers
    as a pogey-man, you understand day-to-day price manipulation.
    nobody buyin grouper, nobody working grouper
     
  9. lite-liner

    lite-liner troll enforcement Staff Member

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    Look, believe it or not, I like the idea of stronger rec regulation for the benefit of the species.
    what I don't like is the way it's administered without apparent regard for creating an opposite imbalance. which has occurred here in the western gom. I can relate it to the sea lion thing in Ca. or the cormorant thing throughout the midwest. seen all of it 1st-hand.
    at some point we gotta say they're recovered, & let the chips fall, before an opposite imbalance completely destroys the whole ecology.
    I personally think the perceived overfishing that is occurring is directly attributed to the
    voracious appetite of the ever-increasing red snapper.
    I have seen spots that NEVER had snappers, but were full of scamp & AJ, are now rife with the red scourge, with not an AJ to be seen. triggerfish overfished. Really? no. Red snappers are everywhere & eating everything, but NMFS attributes it to rec overfishing.
    Bullshit!
     
  10. lite-liner

    lite-liner troll enforcement Staff Member

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    exactly. so there really is no way to accurately determine if the low catch rate is attributed directly to low populations, let alone whether or not that was from rec anglers.
    it's a stroke job, just like the red snapper.
     
  11. lite-liner

    lite-liner troll enforcement Staff Member

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    wait a minute. you posted incomplete numbers as a basis for your argument?
    I'm disappointed in you, HJ.................
     
  12. HungryJack

    HungryJack Member

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    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
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  13. lite-liner

    lite-liner troll enforcement Staff Member

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    I cannot remember in my life when the average rec-caught red snapper was around 10#.
    those are prime breeders, 4-10 years old. they've been doing their job damn good, too.
     
  14. lite-liner

    lite-liner troll enforcement Staff Member

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    please refer to post #7, & then post #16
     
  15. lite-liner

    lite-liner troll enforcement Staff Member

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    going to bed, us workin' stiff's get no relief.
    s'posed to snow in Corpus Christi, Texas tomorrow.
    shit!
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
  16. HungryJack

    HungryJack Member

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  17. GARRIGA

    GARRIGA Senior Member

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    If comms concentrate in shallow water to maximize fishing time over overall time spent and they exhaust that resource because it also provides the 13-17” market size fish then lack of future hauls doesn’t indicate there’s less fish overall. Just where they fish. Go deep. Go Big. Lots of fish swimming around. Just not the preferred market size, just too deep to maximize time and I’m glad because more fish for me to catch on my bait tipped jigs. :)
     
  18. lite-liner

    lite-liner troll enforcement Staff Member

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    you make a very valid point, HJ.
    except that the comm. laws for snapper are far more complex than those for SB's (oh wait,
    only 1 law. no comm fishing for stripers. right?), so its not the best comparison, but I totally
    get your point.
    was not trying to discredit you earlier, just pointing out that incomplete data as you presented it in post #9 does nothing to further your argument, other than to point out that something far more dramatic is in play for comm #'s to drop like that over 1 season.
    And no, I do not think it's because the comms are backing off to save the stock.

    this conversation is quite nice, I appreciate your perspective.
    may not agree with it........
     
  19. lite-liner

    lite-liner troll enforcement Staff Member

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    I get all that.
    What I didn't know is that comm striper fishing was back.
    very rare that a comm fishery once taken away completely, returns at all.
    did not mean to derail this into another snapper debate.
    this is supposed to be about the statistically-perceived crash of the red grouper population
    in the south atlantic region.
    I have never caught a red grouper, so I have no dog in this fight. but I see
    tons of this years catch photos by many Fla. folks of big red groupers.
    I would still like to see rec ("reported") catch numbers for this year & compare them to the
    ("reported") numbers from '16.
    lack of rec participation is a major detractor, but my guess is the rate of decline wont even be close to the #'s you posted for the comms over the same time period. which, if true, leads me to believe that market manipulation is a stronger factor for these #'s than species decline.
    what say you?
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  20. HungryJack

    HungryJack Member

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    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
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