Braid, Diameters, tested Bs and Buy guide

Discussion in 'Tackle and Rigging' started by Paulus, Jul 2, 2013.

  1. bnz

    bnz Just a guy who likes to fish

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    Yeah, I had Paulus test some Fins line after I couldn't get as much line on my reel as I should have. Both of the lines I sent him (60 and 100 lb test) tested thicker diameter than both Fins website and Paulus' old test of the line on his website. Haven't gone back with Fins since.
     
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  2. Eocustomknives

    Eocustomknives Member

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    Anyone have an update to this?
     

  3. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

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    FWIW
    There are 3 basic methods for measuring line diameter all using a set of vernier calipers or a micrometer ( preferably a micrometer for accuracy & repeatability )
    1.
    The coarse most inaccurate way ( often correlates well to manufacturers measurements as it is biased to the low side of actual)
    - place sample in the jaws clamp up tight till resistance or 'clutch' of the micrometer slips & take reading ( typically squashes the line ).
    2.
    IIRC Paulus method .... wrap 10 turns on a 1" dia rod , pack together neatly, measure width of 10 wraps & divide by 10 ( quite>very accurate ).
    3.
    measure by method one , open jaws slightly & with light tension on a small length of line pass it into the jaws & repeat adjusting the jaws until lightest friction is felt as the line passes into the jaws. note measurement.

    best to repeat a minimum of 3 times on different areas of the sample length & average.
    This is the most accurate way to measure braided line diameter & is the most repeatable as braided spectra/dyneema has very low elasticity & packs consistently over a quite wide range of tensions when stretched lengthways..

    This most represents the diameter of line when filling a reel under modest tension.
    I use Method 3 ( He He I developed it ) but I'm sure someone would have used such a method for measuring fabric twine diameters before me.

    Note; Micrometers are manufactured with a standardised clutch tension to deliver consistent measurement readings when the jaws are tightened to the clamping pressure of the clutch setting when measuring solid objects . This clamping pressure is unsuitable for measuring fabric & woven materials which can be squashed.

    There is a reason manufacturers typically used method 1.............its easy & it makes the measurement smaller than it really is.
    In repetitive testing method 3 measurement is close to double the method 1 measurement for many braids.
    Monofiliament ( nylon & Fluoro etc ) typically has an 5-8% difference between method 1 & method 3.
     
  4. putter

    putter Active Member

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    Has anyone done testing on lines predominantly sold overseas, such as Varivas Avani Casting PE? Would be really awesome if the line diameters are actually what they should be for their PE rating. It’s very frustrating to buy a spool of braid that “should” fit, yet end up with not enough line fitting on the reel or the reel being way under filled. Breaking strength, abrasion resistance, and castability are almost becoming secondary considerations at this point.
     
  5. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

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    Its a commodity that is subject to market blurb...........its product positioning in the marketplace.............not necessarily Truth in Advertising.
    As consumers, the advertised diameters should be truthful & if its marketed at a PE rating it should have an industry standard that applies to ALL product in the category.
    We should not have to worry about the truth of the line size for reel capacity so we can focus on the other attributes of the line that we are particularly interested in for the activity we intend to use it for.
    We don't have a standard knotstrength test or a standard knot strength rating.
    WHY not ?????????????
    every line we use ....we use with knots in it...............it should be an industry standardised test & specified on the product.
    Knot strength of a product with a single overhand knot ( single turn ) in the middle of the test piece produces a very indicative knot strength percentage for lines. Easy to do & consistent in its simplicity.
    There are a lot of variations in braiding technique our lines are manufactured under & each change in braiding format changes the relative knot strength of the resultant line.
    ie
    for line of equal diameter & material type.............
    The less the piks per inch the the higher the UTS ( breaking strain ) & the lower the percentage knot strength.
    The higher the piks per inch the better the knotstrength percentage of the actual UTS

    FWIW
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  6. putter

    putter Active Member

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    Totally agree Denis! Yet my question remains. I would gladly pay a bit more to know what I’m buying but I haven’t been able to find the information I need.
     
  7. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

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    Paul vG was the last to collate accurate line data , but has retired due to ill health. no one has picked up the mantle publicly.
    the other problem is that the equipment required to do the job properly is quite expensive & each test ( min3 repeats) takes time. The website holding the info costs money to run & access.

    Paul had surgery & is well these days , but will not be returning to public line testing. He has become an excellent wildlife photographer specialising in birds. The exercise is keeping him fit & healthy.

    FWIW
    I'm using a lot of Berkeley X9 at the moment.........very slightly higher diameter than J8 or grande, but better abrasion resistance & better knotstrength..............despite grande being touted as having high abrasion resistance... ( well it is a bit better than J8 braid , but x9 is better again).
    Recent purchases of Jbraid grande have been slipping in tried & true knots, seems to have a lubricant added now.............either that or its been contaminated somewhere in shipment to Oz.
     
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  8. Salty Bones

    Salty Bones Active Member

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    So I've been interested in trying out the x9. A few buddies have used it and they like it a lot. All using the 30lb test. But now I'm a little bit confused denis about the x9 being higher diameter. I'm seeing from their respective sites that for 30lb, the x9 is .20 and the grand is .28 am I reading it wrong or is it a certain test that your using that's smaller then the other? Just trying to get all the possible info before I spool up. Thanks in advance
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  9. putter

    putter Active Member

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    This is the issue. Maybe some don't care, but for those that may be using esoteric set-ups, it's a must know, need, and want!
     
  10. tugasangler

    tugasangler Fishing Guru

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    I find that I figure these questions out much better when I buy and use and fish and try things ... I use forums and the internet for general ideas. I take all responsibility that if I wanna be esoteric I figure it out myself. Anything I must know Is my responsibility to learn . Not someone else’s responsibility to teach me. Also why I’ve learned to generalize fishing forum info is because so many variables are different between us and our tackle and our fisheries.
    I don’t think the differences between the two would be noticeable to the eye . I’m also not sure the differences found through testing in labs directly correlate to how it would be in fishing situations .
     
  11. putter

    putter Active Member

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    Glad you have a system that works for you.
     
  12. kellerman2006

    kellerman2006 Well-Known Member

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    Line manufacturers generally always understate diameters. The diameter labeled is almost always lower than what the actual diameter turns out to be.
     
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  13. tugasangler

    tugasangler Fishing Guru

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    I can show you the results of my efforts .. would you be able to show yours ? If you can’t then maybe you need a new system .
     
  14. putter

    putter Active Member

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    Yes. It seems I can:

    stupid.png
     
  15. Salty Bones

    Salty Bones Active Member

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    Yeah, the inconsistency is what I'm afraid of. Like James said, about buying stuff and trying them out through trial and error is what I almost always do. I was just hoping for once that this line was true lol. I've been using the 30lb j braid and it's worked ridiculously well. I also use the daiwa saltiga 12 but it's really pricey. So I was just hoping for a little more slight advantage! I'm gonna spool up a reel with it. I'm sure it will work. Just have to wait till next season to give it a go.
     
  16. DenisB

    DenisB Senior Member

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    If you look back at post#44 in this thread you will see how I do it & why.

    to recap
    line is wound on reels under tension , that tension determines the shape of the line cross section & its packing ratio. That determines the capacity of that line on a given reel spool.
    the diameter test method that best reflects the line cross section on a spool is method 3.
    When you compare the diameters of 2 lines using method 3 it accurately indicates which line will provide the greater capacity on your spool.

    I can't speak for the test method nor results that someone elses using in making internet posts.
    Same as "knot wars" some use very flawed methodology as we have shown in threads on 360T.
    I can speak for my test results & that the method used was consistent & appropriate.

    I stand by my statement that X9 is slightly thicker than J8, but has better abrasion resistance & knot strength. I have not tested every size line, just those I checked for my own or son's use.

    One application my son has is very specific landbased oceanSP.......light jigs, small SP ( ~3" )maximum casting distance to reach gutters the fish are in. To maximise casting distance he uses 6#braid & the rod is 9'6" imported Salmon Steelheadcustombuild ( dad of course). He uses a lot of line due to large fish cutting him off & abraiding larege sections of line on the reefs. increasing line size is not an option as the required casting distance is reduced & heavier larger jigs just don't get the strikes. We imported a lot of J8 ( thousands & thousands of metres) from the US when the exchange rate was a lot better than it is now. then started using Grande when it came out predicting longer casts from a slightlysofter laid braid & thrusting the blurb that said better abrasion resistance. Measurements ( method 3 ) showed slightly smaller diameter than J8.
    Go read the spool lables yourself............0.06 for both. Actuals 0.10 J8 & 0.095 Grande.
    Practical results :-
    1. had to put a little more backing under the Grande to maintain spool fill height
    2. did cast a few metres further on average.
    Then along came x9.
    spool says 0.08 Actual is 0.11( a fraction under) casting distance reduced .............actual abrasion better than J8 & grande ......excellent knots.

    Now get some 6# J8 or grande, slap it in a micrometer & crank the handle till the clutch slips & you crush it till you get ............guess what .......0.06 This has been repeated in several tackleshops in discussions about line diameter. Obviously the marketing Dept of J8 likes this test method as it gives the idea that its thinner than it really is.
    Take home message ............you have to do this stuff yourself to do it properly , once you know the correct method for accurate realistic measurements.

    I am not knocking Daiwa J Braids I still use a lot of it & have many Daiwa products...... just their marketting practices for line sizes.
    Same issue with X9............its not 0.08 as advertised.............because of the central core in X9 it doesn't crush in a method1 test as much as 8 carrier braid .But again that method gives the smallest reading.
    All of the fishing line companies are competing with each other in the marketplace & tell porkies about line size to compete.
    The fabric thread world uses "denier" to define thread size. So a nylon thread might be specified as 210/6....... ie 6 strands of 210 Denier nylon to make the thread.
    Spectra & Dyneema braids etc are threads, but because they are competing with monofiliament marketed as diameter & breaking strain...............braids are marketed the same way.

    when I go looking at braid choices in a tackleshop I go armed with my trusty micrometer.... it doesn't lie to me.

    FWIW
     
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  17. Salty Bones

    Salty Bones Active Member

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    Thank you very much for that detailed post. Brings in a whole new light and I appreciate it! And thank you for the testing you've done and shared! That's great info right there!
     
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  18. putter

    putter Active Member

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    Denis, your method #3 for measuring line thickness probably correlates quite well with the measurements shown on aquaholik's spreasheet. Thanks for sharing!