bearings, bearings, bearings!

Discussion in 'Reel Repair' started by alantani, Mar 1, 2007.

  1. alantani

    alantani Senior Member

    453
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    bearings, bearings, bearings!

    in many past reel repair posts, you've seen me open up
    bearings to clean them, but i've never had a complete
    discussion of one this topic before. i'd like to do
    this now. it's a post that is long overdue. for many
    reels, bearings are the weak link. they are often the
    first things that will fail. i will start out by
    saying that shimano recognized this and was the first
    company to actually do something about it. as of yet,
    no other major reel manufacturers have followed suit.
    i hope that will change.

    basic fishing reel bearing design is fairly simple.
    you've got an outer race, and inner race, the balls
    themselves and a cage. the material almost always
    stainless steel.

    [​IMG]

    the biggest difference between bearings is the "side
    plate." avet and accurate bearings are sealed. the
    seal itself is often blue or black, and is made up of
    a phosphor bronze and plastic laminate that is simply
    pressed in.

    [​IMG]

    the majority of reel manufacturers use bearings with
    one of two types of metal shields. the first is a
    pressed in metal shield.

    [​IMG]

    the second type of metal shield is held in by a
    retaining ring. when you see a bearing with a metal
    shield, it's a 50:50 chance of seeing one or the
    other.

    [​IMG]

    and then there are shimano's open bearings. they are
    touted as having more chromium for greater corrosion
    resistance and are packed with a thin grease.

    [​IMG]

    so there you have it, your four types of bearings;
    plastic seal, pressed in metal shield, retaining ring
    with metal shield, and open.

    when servicing a bearing, the first thing you have to
    do is PULL IT OUT!!!!!! trust me on this one. there
    is nothing more frustating than having to pull a
    rusted bearing out of a rusted bearing cap. to this
    end, i made a couple of bearing pullers. the small
    one can be made from coat hanger material or stainess
    steel welding rod. one end is hammered flat, then
    bent to a 90 degree angle, and then shaped on a small
    bench grinder. it works pretty darned good!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    the other is made from a penn handle nut wrench.
    yeah, don't throw these away anymore! shape it the
    same way.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    the other problem situation is specifically with some
    of the shimano reels. here is an old calcutta 400
    spool. note that the bearing (well, bushing, in this
    case) is held in by a cross pin.

    [​IMG]

    we're going to remove the cross pin with a special
    tool. it's a ratty old pair of vise grips with a slot
    cut in one side.

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1594.JPG

    oh, c'mon, stop laughing! it's all i had laying
    around and i'm on a budget! anyway, i cut a slot in
    the side with a bench grinder. if i had to do it over
    again, i'd use the cut off wheel from my dremmel.

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1595.JPG

    you just press the pin out half way, the pull it out
    the rest of the way and be careful not to mangle it
    up. remember, you need that pin!

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1596.JPG

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1597.JPG

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1598.JPG

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1599.JPG

    see, nice and clean! now find a bearing with the same
    dimensions as this old bushing, say 3x8x3mm, press the
    pin back in and you're in business!

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1602.JPG

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1603.JPG

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1604.JPG

    nice, huh!

    ok, back to business. let's all agree for the moment
    that we are going to clean out the bearing and we're
    going to to it my way. well, that means removing the
    seal or shield. we need a few more specialized tools.
    our first bearing is sealed. this one is either a
    piece of cake, or next to impossible. most are easy.
    you simply take a small scalpel (hey, one of the
    advantages of working in a hospital), slide the blade
    carefully underneath the shield, twist the blade just
    a little and the seal will pop out cleanly. so
    cleanly, in fact, that you should be able to pop it
    back it and it should still work perfectly. if you
    gouge the cage underneath you will have to replace the
    bearing, so be careful.

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1611.JPG

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1612.JPG

    this is actually a bearing from the drive shaft of the
    smaller avet reels. newer bearings are easy to
    service. THE SEALS FROM BEARINGS AROUND THE DRIVE
    SHAFTS OF OLDER AVET REELS ARE NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO
    REMOVE. you will know quickly if you have old
    bearings or new ones.

    to remove a metal shield that is pressed into the
    bearing, you need another specialized tool. this is
    an old screwdriver that i've ground to a nice long
    point. drive the point in between the shield and the
    inner race, the pry up the shield. it will be mangled
    at this point and will have to be discarded. this
    takes a light touch. drive the point in to far and
    you will mangle the cage and ruin the bearings. i
    tried using the point of a small swiss army knife for
    a bunch of small boca bearings and ruined the entire
    lot, about $100's worth. be careful!

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1613.JPG

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1614.JPG

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1615.JPG

    the last type is a bearing with a metal shield held in
    by a retaining ring. you need a small fish hook. see
    the end of the retaining ring? lift it up with the
    point of the fishhook right there. if you have
    trouble catching the end of the ring, get a sharper
    hook.

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1605.JPG

    sometimes it will go flying, so hang on to it if you
    want to see it again.

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1606.JPG

    lift up the shield with the scalpel and don't gouge
    anything inside.

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1607.JPG

    want to reinstall the shield? simply put it back in
    place, then hold the retaining ring at the bottom,
    then push in the the right side, then the left side of
    the retaining ring and you're done.

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1608.JPG

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1609.JPG

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1610.JPG

    now all the bearings are open. let's clean them up.
    first is the hemostat. this is the easiest way to
    hold a bearing.

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1620.JPG

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1621.JPG

    now, to clean these things. i've tried a ton of
    different products. here's the short answer. it's
    crc carb cleaner. of all the products i've used, this
    carb cleaner has the most pressure, and pressure is
    everything. nothing else i've used works as well.

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1625.JPG

    now, i've talked about "carb cleaner and compressed
    air" before and several guys jumped in and said "no
    compressed air." i want to know that i took what you
    said to heart. since finding the crc product, using
    lots of compressed air has not been necessary. so i
    now use the crc carb cleaner to clean the bearing, and
    only a gentle stream of compressed air to remove the
    carb cleaner.

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1626.JPG

    now we get to lube them up. i was fiddling around
    with my "secret sauce" mix of corrosion x and shimano
    drag grease and it seems to stick fairly well. good
    protection, lousy freespool. typically i use
    corrosion x alone, um, in a reel x bottle. and for
    the bass guys, i have quantum's hot sauce, met-ol from
    smoothdrag.com and rocket fuel. lots of freespool,
    lousy protection.

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1629.JPG

    to get the maximum amount of protection, i always go
    back to yamaha outboard engine grease.

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1630.JPG

    i like to hand pack the bearings and replace the
    shields. it's the best way to avoid this.....

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/100_00781.jpg

    it's not necessary for any of you to maintain this
    type of inventory, but it might be a good idea to keep
    a couple of bearings as back up. it is very easy to
    damage a bearing while you're trying to pull the
    shield off. you do need to be careful.

    http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/100_1628.JPG

    i order all of my bearings from bocabearings.com, and
    i order them all "open and dry." unfortunately, i
    still pay retail so you're looking $1-1.5k in bearings
    in the photo above. after dealing with bearing issues
    for all these years, i've come to a couple of
    conclusions. for lever drag reels, i like spool
    bearings that are open and lubed with corrosion x.
    same with star drag reels. for side plate bearings
    and drive shaft bearings, i like them packed with
    yamaha engine grease. if the shields or seals can be
    replace, all the better.

    what i don't like is a bearing that has a seal or
    shield with only a light lube. once water gets
    inside, the bearing is toast. a shimano tld 15 has
    four bearings that cost $10-12 each. i've had reels
    that required replacements of all four. the avet sx,
    mx, jx and lx reels also have bearing issues. there
    are six and they are all sealed. i like to open up
    the two spool bearings, clean them out and lube them
    with corrosion x. the other four are opened, packed
    with yamaha engine grease, the seals are pressed back
    into place and the bearings are re-installed. i've
    even seen corroded bearings in accurate reels. the
    proceedure is the same as avet and i think it would
    greatly improve the reliability of the reel. yeah,
    working on lever drag reels is alot of work.

    ok, guys, that's it. hope this clears some things up.
    alan
     
  2. SkeeterRonnie

    SkeeterRonnie Senior Member

    1,990
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    wow... thats years of experience in a nutshell.. thanks Doc! I will be printing this out and saving it if you dont mind.
     

  3. Gunsmoke

    Gunsmoke Guest

    558
    5
    Alantani,

    Very well done. I couldn't agree more with you on the sealed bearings. Once the saltwater gets in the sealed bearing, there not much of a chance of it leaving. It's like a rust hotel. Remember, rust never sleeps. An open bearing gives the saltwater a way to escape. I have had bearings problems with older accurates. Maybe the other "Hard Headed" reel Companies will learn from Shimano.

    I took apart an Tiagra "A" series 80W the other day that had been fished about 15 times. It was less than a year old. The new A-RB bearings were still in great shape. The only thing I did was put some Corrosion-X on each one. By the way, they pulled out with no problems.

    I've think that caluctta 400 spool has seen it's better days. The owner must never wash down or change his line very often. I like the calcutta series. None of mine have ever come close to looking that abused. I think people are nuts that don't empty the spool of line at least one a year. Leaving a salt water residue on the mono and keeping it on the spool will cause corrosion no matter how well it was anodized.
     
  4. Bret

    Bret Senior Member

    1,699
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    Thanks Alan, I think I will tear apart some reels and clean some bearings..
     
  5. alantani

    alantani Senior Member

    453
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    thanks, guys! actually, the calcutta spool was my fault. i put it in a sonic cleaner with arm and hammer laundry detergent (not simple green). then i forgot about it overnight. i ended up buying him a new reel. yup, $200 mistake! alan
     
  6. MrBill

    MrBill Senior Member

    2,835
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    Excellent post on the "Bearings 101".

    Prehaps you can give us a "Gear 101", and a "Drags 101".

    Thanks
     
  7. lite-liner

    lite-liner troll enforcement Staff Member

    5,814
    1,644
    Can't think of a better tutorial
    thanks
    -Brian
    P.S- where do you get the washer for the 40# ex conversion?
     
  8. alantani

    alantani Senior Member

    453
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    ah, yes, one of my last posts on bd's avet board....

    debated whether to post this or not. i just finished hotrodding an avet 4/02 and here's what i did.

    spool bearings opened, cleaned and lubed with corrosion x
    side plate bearings packed with grease, shields re-installed
    drag washers cleaned and greased with shimano drag grease
    screw holes greased with yamaha engine grease
    4/0 handle replaced with a 5/0 handle
    drag plate shimmed

    [​IMG]

    this reel now delivers 30#'s of drag at strike before losing freespool, only a slight amount of load when cranking at that strike setting, and 45 seconds of freespool also at that strike setting. this means that the avet 4/02 will no longer have to languish at a max drag setting of 17 pounds at strike before losing freespool. it can FINALLY fish shoulder to shoulder with the penn 30s, the tiagra and accurate. we're talking 100# spectra and an 80# topshot with 30#'s of drag at strike. but then, of course, the drags have to be greased in order for this to work properly.



    and the answer is....

    in the foreground you see a small brass washer. it is extremely thin. it is found is several shimano lever drag reels and has a part number of "tld 0043 preload washer b." it is the perfect thickness. the inside diameter is just a few thousanths too large. this washer goes in between the right spool bearing (key #24) and the right brake (key #23). what this does is move the right brake just a hair closer to the brake disc. it's amazing what a small change like this can make.

    i'm going to have to find a washer with a better fit before i start doing this on a regular basis.



    i'm also finally getting around to checking out a thrust washer that is already found in the avet ex 4/0 two speed. it's part #ex402-29. i think it's too thick, but we're going to see.

    i saw an interesting comment about the avet ex 4/0 a while back...

    Ryan,

    The Avet EXW 4/0 didn't work out so well.....it's didn't have enough drag for the big boys and was too large of a reel for smaller applications......it was a total inbetweener reel, thus Avet decided to scrap it and replace with the 30 series (awesome reel)....

    funny thing is that this little upgrade will increase the drag range of the lowly avet ex and exw 4/0 two speed reels from 17#'s at strike to 30#'s at strike. and at the the fred hall show in san francisco, they were dumping these two speed 4/0 avets for $269.95 plus tax.

    it's a crazy business! but, hey! i just fix 'em!
     
  9. alantani

    alantani Senior Member

    453
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    P.S- where do you get the washer for the 40# ex conversion?

    oops, sorry, to answer your question, call shimano at 877-577-0600 and ask for part #tld 0043 preload washer b. but hold off until i have a chance to really nail this down. thanks! alan
     
  10. MrBill

    MrBill Senior Member

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    Alan,
    Is there any way of getting 50#s of drag out of a Tiagra 30WLRSA?
     
  11. Ragman

    Ragman Moderator

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    Hey Alan,

    Thanks for taking the time to put all of this information together and sharing with this board!

    You just upped the value of 360 Tuna immensely!
     
  12. alantani

    alantani Senior Member

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    Alan, Is there any way of getting 50#s of drag out of a Tiagra 30WLRSA?

    honestly, 35#'s i think is the best i've ever done. you need go to a 50 standard width.
     
  13. MrBill

    MrBill Senior Member

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    One more question for you Alan. What is the Max drag on one could expect from an off the self ATD50?
     
  14. alantani

    alantani Senior Member

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    don't know, but i'm going to find out. i've sold off all of my long range reels and will be ordering up a full set of accurate two speeds, from the 270 to the 30, and maybe even a 50. alan
     
  15. txseadog

    txseadog Moderator

    675
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    We were testing Minnow's ATD50 at Bass Pro a while back and broke 100# pline with a straight pull and the drag buttoned down. It still had great free spool but I wouldn't recommend fishing that way. I remember seeing some posts on Allcoast a few years back claiming at extreme drag setting a C clips would break as some sort of fail-safe and put the reel out of commission.

    found it.
    http://www.allcoastsportfishing.com/forum/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=313&topic_id=153604&mesg_id=153604&listing_type=search
     
  16. MrBill

    MrBill Senior Member

    2,835
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    There's a new 50 that just hit the shelves. Penn has finally come out with the 50VSW. It's topless and narrow for you guys that can't handle the wobble of a wide model. The drag curve on this reel is fairly consistent in drag pressure all along its lever's arc. If your a Penn lover, this is your tuna reel. The first thing I would do is to replace the handle or at least that uncomfortable looking knob on the handle.

    Here's some specs.
    45#'s of drag at strike
    650 yds of 200# Spectra with 50 yds 130# topshot
    500 yds 130# Spectra with 100 yds 80-100# topper
    3.1:1 high and 1/3:1 low gear ratio
    75 ounces
    line retrieve per crank in low gear 14 inches
    line retrieve per crank in high gear 34 inches
    Four bearings, Penn's Quick Shift mechanism...
     

    Attached Files:

  17. fishr1989

    fishr1989 Senior Member

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    would putting ceramic ABEC-5 or 7 bearings in a reel like the Avet LX be a good idea? there wouldn't be a problem with corrosion and it seems the reels would be just as smooth.
     
  18. Ratherbfishing

    Ratherbfishing Member

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    Sweet read.. Thanks Alan!
     
  19. alantani

    alantani Senior Member

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    would putting ceramic ABEC-5 or 7 bearings in a reel like the Avet LX be a good idea? there wouldn't be a problem with corrosion and it seems the reels would be just as smooth.

    the ceramic balls will not corrode, but the stainless steel inner and outer races will. i think the bottom line is the same. i think that ceramic bearings offer no advantage in a salt water environment and a low speed application like a fishing reel. the trick is to service your reel after EVERY trip. the new reel rebuild posts will emphasize that fact. it's something that you can't dance around anymore. stay tuned .....
     
  20. fishr1989

    fishr1989 Senior Member

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    the reason I asked is because I have heard of people putting ceramic bearings in their reels to make the spool spin faster. I figure they would have NO place on an Avet as the spool is already fast, but in another reel?