360 Tuna Fishers Forum banner
1 - 20 of 49 Posts

·
SPONSOR
Joined
·
11,848 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It was unfortunate Allan Hawk got cold treatment here and he doesn't post here anymore. I think his straight forward writings bother some. But I have no doubt he is a man of knowledge about spinning reels and we should get benefit if he continues to post here.

Here is Allan Hawk's review of new Stella SW. After reading his article, I realized that new Stella improved a lot more than I thought.

Stella SW Review
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
2,024 Posts
i remember his arrogant writing style. it was not beneficial to this place to cause so much grief all at once.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,221 Posts
I now know more about the stella than I ever could.
Although, nowhere in his review did I find a way to afford one....:cool:
good post and very detailed. I like that.
those drag washers look cool. I just know the first thing I do when I finally get one is tear it apart.....
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
2,835 Posts
I posted on that thread some time after lunch and got a "crazy" Or "Loco" smiley face as a comment. Those guys on that forum are only concerned about one thing. Dunking the reel in water. That's about it. They really don't catch big fish with spinning reels and waterproof is their big issue.

If you mention that you use 25#s of drag they have a conniption fit. It's a great site for surf fisherman. Some of those guys are hard core. Surf fishing can be a tough sport. Getting smashed against the rocks by heavy surf is not fun.

I go to that site about once a month just for the fun of it. They love to argue between the Van Staals and Zeebass. That's the site where I got real excited about buying a Zeebaas. Like I thought, the frame is to small and not heavy duty enough for my style of fishing.

Alan has been kicked off that site once before. He hates both VS and ZB's.
He must have cut down the ZB earlier in the post as the owner of the site got after him and deleted some comments. Alan does know his stuff. I think he has something to do with the development of Penn's new International Torque spinning reels due out soon. If they did consult with him and build it the way he wants, it will be a great reel.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,553 Posts
that is an insane review with great detail and info. people on this board are protective of their members (which is good). and when he commented on ichibahns stella breakdown got alot of people upset. his info can be of great use and would benefit this board but if he doesnt want to post here its not that hard to find his posts on other boards.
 
G

·
hes a knowledgeable guy, clearly. that tutorial is really informative. while i wont be selling my FAs anytime soon, i'm glad to know someone took the time (other than shimano, obviouisly) to ensure that there are worthwhile differences with the new stellas.

i agree his demeanor was somewhat off-putting, and it wouldve been better to have been more diplomatic with how he treated freddy's efforts in breaking down the stella.

that being said, i hope he comes back and can share good information like this with everyone. it only benefits us to have the best possible info on the gear we spend hard earned dollars on :)
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
5,457 Posts
While the tutorial was informative, he didnt tell you anything more about the reel, other than he approves of it, than shimano has already said(about the internals) or Gman and MrBill(about the extra casting from the spool lip).

He had never posted here before the Stella thread, had no desires to before or after. His only reason to Join was to cause problems here, which he did.

d-a
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,386 Posts
It was unfortunate Allan Hawk got cold treatment here and he doesn't post here anymore. I think his straight forward writings bother some. But I have no doubt he is a man of knowledge about spinning reels and we should get benefit if he continues to post here.

Here is Allan Hawk's review of new Stella SW. After reading his article, I realized that new Stella improved a lot more than I thought.

Stella SW Review

I agree with you, having read through the review a couple of times. He put a great deal of energy and thought into understanding the reel. The writing seems clear and his conclusions of his observations and research seems sound.

I especially liked his summary:

In conclusion, a modern reel is simply three things: A drag, an anti-reverse, and strong gears. Stuff such as water proofing, bail locks, scratch protection, etc, all take second place to those three things that make or break a reel.

One of his points, drag, has not been sufficiently analyzed. We know something about how much drag reels can put out, although it varies a lot with spool diameter. What we know little about, is temperature rise caused by drag level and length of run. Why exactly did those Saragosa caps melt? Manufacturers know that we will measure how much tension the drag can create with a full spool when we pull with our scales. They also know that we won't ask how much heat the drag can dissipate and at what rate.

My reason for mentioning this is that the kind of person who can do the analysis of drag heat dissipation (and offer some thoughts on reel drag performance and what to do about it) is probably an engineer somewhere. In my past, I managed development teams of engineers, needless to say, the most brilliant engineers are often not the best diplomats (it's sort of undiplomatic of me to point that out ;) ).

This is a great group on this board, lot's of experience, knowledge, and insight. I hope it can continue to look past the messenger to the message.
 

·
SPONSOR
Joined
·
11,848 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
pametfisher,
It seems you made a right decision to buy Stella 18000SW over SaltigaZ6500 based on the article by Hawk. :)
 

·
Member
Joined
·
34 Posts
I can answer Pametfisher's questions about drag, especially why the Saragosa's drag caps melted. The answer is very simple once you understand the reel design details. The drag stack is several drag washers sandwiched inbetween SS washers (standard design you have all seen before). The drag knob presses down on the top SS washer, and the material that part of the knob is made out of is plastic. The SS washer gets hot, there is force pushing the plastic knob part into the hot SS washer, and if the washer gets hot enough, the plastic softens and deforms. That is what happened, the knob didn't really melt, it just got to hot and deformed. Once it deforms, it starts to stick and drag problem.

I have seen several of these knobs at a shop and I also bought a Saragosa, which Shimano is upgrading as we speak. Mine was never used and it did not melt.

BTW, I emailed Shimano several times and was less than impressed with a particular service rep. who responded. I won't go into details, but he gave me a whole bunch of wrong info over several months. He had me worried that Shimano didn't really understand their issue. I think the case was this particular guy was clueless, and felt any answer is better than saying he didn't know.

Anyway, from what I hear the fix is change the platic that contacts the SS drag washer to a higher temp plastic that can take more temperature. That is a reasonable approach. Changing it to metal may be even better, but it may require other changes that get too complicated based on where they are with the reel.

I am a practicing Mechanical Engineer, and if you are interested in understanding drag friction better, here is a good explanation:

"www.engin.brown.edu/courses/en3/Notes/Statics/friction/friction.htm"

Read section 12.5 which explains why friction force (or drag force) is independant of surface area. This means that the small drag washers in the Saragosa can generate as much resistance a larger washers. Be careful, though, because the "drag" that a reel can produce is the resistance force times the diameter the force acts through. For large diam, bottom of spool drag whashers, the diam the force acts through really makes the difference, not the surface area. For getting rid of the heat produced, the surface area is key and makes a big difference, although the heat has to transfer through various parts, which makes the whole issue complicated.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
2,924 Posts
Listen in the end you can be the most brilliant person in the world but if your delivery is wrong or crude people dont care. I cant speak for everyone but personally I try to treat everyone on these boards like they are my family and I firmly believe that WE are are our biggest asset.

Giving back is more than having knowledge its about being professional, respecting peoples opinion and helping out ... Not making disparaging comments about people on other boards. He is a very well known guy who has earned his reputation and does great work but I for one did not like his delivery at all. I found t to be somewhat rude and con-decending at best

Great review on the new stella but the background info took away from it
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
2,835 Posts
I for one did not like his delivery at all. I found t to be somewhat rude and con-descending at best

Great review on the new stella but the background info took away from it

I agree 100%. You took the words right out of my mouth. Being a "Mr Know it All" and not having any social skills is a big turn-off to me.
 

·
SPONSOR
Joined
·
11,848 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Someone might confuse Allan Hawk with Hawk, moderator of Allcoast. :)
Hawk of Allcoast is a fine gentleman and is respected by all. He is also a guru of reels.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,386 Posts
I can answer Pametfisher's questions about drag, especially why the Saragosa's drag caps melted. The answer is very simple once you understand the reel design details. The drag stack is several drag washers sandwiched inbetween SS washers (standard design you have all seen before). The drag knob presses down on the top SS washer, and the material that part of the knob is made out of is plastic. The SS washer gets hot, there is force pushing the plastic knob part into the hot SS washer, and if the washer gets hot enough, the plastic softens and deforms. That is what happened, the knob didn't really melt, it just got to hot and deformed. Once it deforms, it starts to stick and drag problem.

I have seen several of these knobs at a shop and I also bought a Saragosa, which Shimano is upgrading as we speak. Mine was never used and it did not melt.

BTW, I emailed Shimano several times and was less than impressed with a particular service rep. who responded. I won't go into details, but he gave me a whole bunch of wrong info over several months. He had me worried that Shimano didn't really understand their issue. I think the case was this particular guy was clueless, and felt any answer is better than saying he didn't know.

Anyway, from what I hear the fix is change the platic that contacts the SS drag washer to a higher temp plastic that can take more temperature. That is a reasonable approach. Changing it to metal may be even better, but it may require other changes that get too complicated based on where they are with the reel.

I am a practicing Mechanical Engineer, and if you are interested in understanding drag friction better, here is a good explanation:

"www.engin.brown.edu/courses/en3/Notes/Statics/friction/friction.htm"

Read section 12.5 which explains why friction force (or drag force) is independant of surface area. This means that the small drag washers in the Saragosa can generate as much resistance a larger washers. Be careful, though, because the "drag" that a reel can produce is the resistance force times the diameter the force acts through. For large diam, bottom of spool drag whashers, the diam the force acts through really makes the difference, not the surface area. For getting rid of the heat produced, the surface area is key and makes a big difference, although the heat has to transfer through various parts, which makes the whole issue complicated.

Thanks for this very thorough further information. I haven't looked at the brown article but will, thanks. Also, if you have any thoughts on the numbers I added to this post, I would appreciate the feed back. Temp Rise. BTW, the surface area I had in mind was the contact area to the spool. Understand your comments about friction.

Where do you believe the primary heat conduction path from the drag stack to the spool is: bottom washer, tabs on alternate metal washers, radiation? I'm thinking it is the contact of the bottom washer.

Shimano's fix in a sense says, "Yes, there's a lot of heat. We won't fix the conduction problem, we'll just keep things from melting." Buyer beware for high drag applications on large fish.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
5,457 Posts
Thanks for this very thorough further information. I haven't looked at the brown article but will, thanks. Also, if you have any thoughts on the numbers I added to this post, I would appreciate the feed back. Temp Rise

Where do you believe the primary heat conduction path from the drag stack to the spool is: bottom washer, tabs on alternate metal washers, radiation? I'm thinking it is the contact of the bottom washer.

Shimano's fix in a sense says, "Yes, there's a lot of heat. We won't fix the conduction problem, we'll just keep things from melting." Buyer beware for high drag applications on large fish.

Maybe since you have plenty of time you can designed a water cooled spool. Something with a small cooler to keep ice water in and a recirculating pump to keep things cooled down, since the High end spinning reels defiantly need this for a problem that doesn't really exist with them.:D

d-a
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,386 Posts
Maybe since you have plenty of time you can designed a water cooled spool. Something with a small cooler to keep ice water in and a recirculating pump to keep things cooled down, since the High end spinning reels defiantly need this for a problem that doesn't really exist with them.:D

d-a

Hey, you have a good sense of humor, LOL! BTW, I really like Shimano products a lot and I own several of them now. And their service is 1st class.

But if the "problem doesn't really exist with them", why did they redesign the Drag Cap do you think?

To me, the melting plastic pointed out how high the drag stack temperatures were getting. From there, it's easy work to think about which system is better, top stack or bottom stack.

If you're catching big fish, greater than 100 lbs., and your spool is not getting hot when line gets stripped off against the drag, that's a bad sign. It means the drag washers are getting VERY hot.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
5,457 Posts
Doug your being a bad boy

Too much rain and not enough fishing

d-a
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
5,457 Posts
Hey, you have a good sense of humor, LOL! BTW, I really like Shimano products a lot and I own several of them now. And their service is 1st class.

But if the "problem doesn't really exist with them", why did they redesign the Drag Cap do you think?

To me, the melting plastic pointed out how high the drag stack temperatures were getting. From there, it's easy work to think about which system is better, top stack or bottom stack.

If you're catching big fish, greater than 100 lbs., and your spool is not getting hot when line gets stripped off against the drag, that's a bad sign. It means the drag washers are getting VERY hot.

I'm glad you saw the sarcasm in my comment, I wouldn't consider a sargossa as a high end spinning reel either.

On a side Note I did see a SR30 drag get smoked and was still too hot to touch after @ 5-10 mins of cooling off. Never heard of it in the shimano stella's though.

d-a
 
1 - 20 of 49 Posts
Top