A Simple Rod Question

Discussion in 'Tackle and Rigging' started by pametfisher, Dec 13, 2008.

  1. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    My question is, when all a rod maker lists is one spec, 20-40# line, what does that mean?

    Below, I asked the Rep of a top quality rod manufacturer in the US for some basic information on a rod--one that I already own which only lists the line rating as 20-40#. Although the Rep was friendly and trying to help, I never got an answer because his company didn't want anyone to know.

    My questions
    Hi,

    ... Can you tell me, or could you get the factory to let me know three things:

    1. What is the maximum drag that this rod is rated for?
    2. What is the maximum dead-lift load that the rod is rated for?
    3. What is the maximum lure weight and the optimum lure weight for this rod?

    ...

    Regards,

    1st Reply
    Good morning,

    I think that your questions are interesting, but will not be able to provide you with accurate answers to them, I would be interested to know what other companies do provide such answers, ...I've never seen a rod rated for drag pressure ... ?

    Maximum dead lift, I really can't imaging that being a reliablely reported piece of data ... We don't publish the data (again I don't even know what it is) because it is to self limiting, looks good on paper, but is it applicable in the real world?

    The lure weight is the easiest one to answer, but it is only a guess on my part and that would be in the 4.5oz range. ...



    My Response
    Here are three foreign rod makers that provide the data I'm asking for ...


    2nd Reply
    I don't know how reliable those companies you mention are, they certainly are not recognizable nor serious competitors to any US rod company, made domestically or not...for example, were would you you go for service on these rods if needed?

    ....

    Basically all I can tell you is that we have successfully caught many bluefin to 170lbs many times over on this rod with a quality, compatible reel using 65lb braid with a 80lb fluoro leader

    My response
    ... I'm asking for the information, or something like it, because ... the rod seems much better than its 20-40# line class rating. You've confirmed that it is better than this rating with your mention of 65# braid. ...

    So can't the engineers at [your company] give a maximum drag setting for a certain range of line angles?

    3rd Reply

    There really isn't any interest by the factory to put such values on the rods ... [since that] would restrict the applications of the rods...

    I have very easily broken 65lb braid using an Accurate SR-30 reel at several different consumer shows and events, ... the rod was not bent to the point of breaking....
     
  2. gman

    gman Senior Member

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    I could understand why they wouldnt want to share some of that but they certainly could have answered the lure weight.

    Question 1: Maximum Drag. Most US companies dont state a drag rating because their rods aren't being used for extreme fishing like what overseas manufactures do. For instance in order to fight a GT you need extreme drag so they rate what you can use. The japanese market for jigging and popping products is like 10 years ahead of us. I mean most people still call spinning reels egg beaters ...

    Most Us Companies dont measure this way

    2. Deadlift test - I dont agree with the deadlift test, and Im sure no american rod company will give you that info. It doesnt demonstrate true value. Lifting 30 pounds off the floor doesn't equate to fishing with 30 pounds of drag with a fish attached to you. It only gives you a representation of the action. I can fight a fish with 30 pounds of drag but I cant hold 30 pounds off the floor all day. Apples to apples

    I think it doesn't demonstrate the true value of a rod. What good is it to lift 30-50 pounds off the ground if the rod is so heavy or unbalanced you couldnt jig all day with it. The better rod manufactures such as Hots, Carpenter, Smith & Shimano pride themselves in having the lightest rod with great backbone BUT parabolic in nature so fishing 30 pounds of drag doesnt kill you

    3. Lure weight - This they should be able to tell you as it is a metric that is used all the time for every type of rod

    In the end we are light years away from the technology and marketing overseas companies offer

    Glenn
     

  3. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    I could understand why they wouldnt want to share some of that but they certainly could have answered the lure weight.

    Question 1: Maximum Drag. Most US companies dont state a drag rating because their rods aren't being used for extreme fishing like what overseas manufactures do. For instance in order to fight a GT you need extreme drag so they rate what you can use. The japanese market for jigging and popping products is like 10 years ahead of us. I mean most people still call spinning reels egg beaters ...

    Most Us Companies dont measure this way

    2. Deadlift test - I dont agree with the deadlift test, and Im sure no american rod company will give you that info. It doesnt demonstrate true value. Lifting 30 pounds off the floor doesn't equate to fishing with 30 pounds of drag with a fish attached to you. It only gives you a representation of the action. I can fight a fish with 30 pounds of drag but I cant hold 30 pounds off the floor all day. Apples to apples

    I think it doesn't demonstrate the true value of a rod. What good is it to lift 30-50 pounds off the ground if the rod is so heavy or unbalanced you couldnt jig all day with it. The better rod manufactures such as Hots, Carpenter, Smith & Shimano pride themselves in having the lightest rod with great backbone BUT parabolic in nature so fishing 30 pounds of drag doesnt kill you

    3. Lure weight - This they should be able to tell you as it is a metric that is used all the time for every type of rod

    In the end we are light years away from the technology and marketing overseas companies offer

    Glenn

    I agree with what you've written but I would have preferred if the Rep had said, "I understand what you're getting at, here is the information that you want." Instead, and I cut most of the ridiculous stuff, which was a laugh, including comments about 4x8 sheets of plywood, I got a lot of defensiveness. If I were to restate what I really would like to know,

    1. If my drag is set at 25#, how far back can I pull on the rod before it will break, or something along those lines.

    2. How high can the drag be set before the rod breaks. Not that I'm going to set it that high but I'd like a real margin and without knowing the limit, I'm left guessing. At this point, I'm going to set things up as I want and if the rod breaks, so be it.

    3. I think what I was looking for was obvious. I don't know why I could only get his, not the company's, estimate.

    Overseas makers are ahead of the U.S. ones and I'd hate to see some good companies go the way of GM.

    Still, when they say 20-40# line, what are they trying to communicate?
     
  4. gman

    gman Senior Member

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    I agree and being a director of sales for a large corporation its answers like the ones you got that make me squirm. He should have just listened and told you " Honestly I don't know the answers to your questions so before I give you wrong info let me speak to my company and get back to you".

    Instead what he did was make himself and his company look like an ass by making bad analogies and gave you useless information that only tarnishes his companies reputation
     
  5. day0ne

    day0ne Senior Member

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    Normally when you look at line weights, the rod will be best somewhere in the middle. Seeker lists the best line weight like 20 (30) 40. Using that criteria, 10 lbs of drag (30lb line) should be right. 13 lbs of drag (40lb line) should start to over power the rod. Of course, this is in a perfect world. Some manufacturers rate their rod too high, some, like Calstar are known to rate them a little light. The way I see it, the max drag a rod can handle without breaking isn't important if it is over powering the rod to the point of collapse.
    Lure weight is a different problem. I've seen 30-50lb rods rated for a max of 2oz and I've seen them rated for 16oz. I wish they would put that on every rod. I suspect it has to do with how tippy the rod is.
     
  6. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Normally when you look at line weights, the rod will be best somewhere in the middle. Seeker lists the best line weight like 20 (30) 40. Using that criteria, 10 lbs of drag (30lb line) should be right. 13 lbs of drag (40lb line) should start to over power the rod. Of course, this is in a perfect world. Some manufacturers rate their rod too high, some, like Calstar are known to rate them a little light. The way I see it, the max drag a rod can handle without breaking isn't important if it is over powering the rod to the point of collapse.
    Lure weight is a different problem. I've seen 30-50lb rods rated for a max of 2oz and I've seen them rated for 16oz. I wish they would put that on every rod. I suspect it has to do with how tippy the rod is.

    Yes, this is what I'm getting at. The 20-40 guideline would suggest drag in the 5# (1/4 of 20) to 13# (1/3 of 40) range. This rod has been designed for a lot more. Even the rep admits it--tuna to 170 pounds, 65# braid, 80# fluoro leader, and Accurate 30L.

    For those of us using equipment to the max, we need valid specs on the rod. "20-40# line class" is really inadequate, we're being treated as if we need to be protected from ourselves. Recognizing this, the Japanese, who tend to be more technical in products, have included more information.

    Regarding casting weight: the rep told me this was a spinning-reel rod for trolling so casting weight was not needed. There is no gimbal on the rod and everyone who I know using it is popping or jigging, including the rep. It takes a lot of experimenting to figure out what some designer already knows. The manufacturer is choosing to play it "safe".
     
  7. day0ne

    day0ne Senior Member

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    Not knowing what rod we are talking about raises several questions. First, you say (and beleive me I'm not doubting you) "This rod has been designed for a lot more. Even the rep admits it". How do we know this? The fact that people have used 65# line, 80# leaders and big reels doesn't mean it was designed for it. A spinning rod can be a little more forgiving when you over power it since you don't have to worry about the line hitting the rod or grips like you do with a conventional. However when it starts bending back in the reel seat area, IMO, you are over powering the rod. Like I said, I don't know what rod we are talking about, but I usually stay in the ball park the manufacturer says. For instance, a rod rated 30-60, I would run 40, except for some Calstars I might run 50. I would never run 60lb or at least I wouldn't set the drag for 60lb. As for 170 lb tuna, there have been 250 lb tuna caught on graphite Sealines, but that doesn't mean it's the best choice.
     
  8. gman

    gman Senior Member

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    The bend is certain rods will difer with regards to overpowering a rod. Most parabolic spinning rods will bend back into the reel seat such as smith and hots.
     
  9. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Not knowing what rod we are talking about raises several questions. First, you say (and beleive me I'm not doubting you) "This rod has been designed for a lot more. Even the rep admits it". How do we know this? The fact that people have used 65# line, 80# leaders and big reels doesn't mean it was designed for it. A spinning rod can be a little more forgiving when you over power it since you don't have to worry about the line hitting the rod or grips like you do with a conventional. However when it starts bending back in the reel seat area, IMO, you are over powering the rod. Like I said, I don't know what rod we are talking about, but I usually stay in the ball park the manufacturer says. For instance, a rod rated 30-60, I would run 40, except for some Calstars I might run 50. I would never run 60lb or at least I wouldn't set the drag for 60lb. As for 170 lb tuna, there have been 250 lb tuna caught on graphite Sealines, but that doesn't mean it's the best choice.

    Yes, you're right. What it's designed for is what I'm trying to figure out. So I shouldn't have written it in that way. ;)

    However, it is sold for that purpose and the Rep uses it for that purpose, but as to what it was designed for, as you saw from my dialog with the Rep ...

    I'd name the rod but I'm not trying to harm the company.
     
  10. ember

    ember Guest

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    My guess is theres way too many variables for a straight,accurate answer. A smooth pull versus a jerk,high sticking,where your pulling on the rod etc, etc.I take that number more as a loose guide than anything else. I see it as kind of like,what size is an 11/0 hook? How much pull does it take to break 80 pound braid? Depends which manufacturer it is,right? To me, a 20-40 pound spinning rod,seeing as 30 to 40( talking mono numbers here) is about max for decent casting performance with a spinner,is a max heavy rod. That company? I've gone down to the next one down, the 15-30 mostly cause it will chuck the sluggos a little farther,and still can put the wood to chuck in the circle game.A factory installed gimble would make some sense on that class rod though.
     
  11. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Here is how Accurate specs its rods. I've asked them why they have a different rating for braid and mono.

    SPINNING 7'

    ACCSR701220LS TwinSpin 12 Braid: 30 -50 LB Mono: 12 -20 LB

    ACCSR701530MLS TwinSpin 12,20 Braid: 40 -65 LB Mono: 15 -30 LB

    ACCSR702540MHS TwinSpin 20,30,30L Braid: 65 -80 LB Mono: 30 -50 LB

    Here's what they say about them:
    All the Accurate XNERGY rods feature "Floating Fulcrum Design" a unique fast to slower action that suited for the friendly use of braided lines and will work excellent with monofilament lines. The harded you pull on these rods, the less stress that is put on the angler, which equates to more pressure on the fish. The rods are extremely powerful, lightweight, and built to make your fishing time more enjoyable.

    Has anyone used one of these?
     
  12. gman

    gman Senior Member

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    Here is the issue ... every brand name reel manufacturer is getting into the rod/vertical jigging game because its hot. Honestly I would only be buying jigging or popping rods from manufacturers that know what they are doing

    Penn and accurate IMHO should just concentrate on their reels
     
  13. VaRandy

    VaRandy Site Sponsor

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    Ok Ill bite!

    If a rod is mentioned as a jigging rod, it should include dead lift capability. Yes, I know, the manufacturer will not give it if we continue to accept lame answers or no answers at all.

    Even though you will not lift the big fish out of the water, thus simulating the dead lift test, it is a known hard limit that you would want to keep in mind. The fact that a 20 lb rig caught a 200 lb marlin tells us NOTHING about the rod which probably never exceeded 8 lbs of drag.

    My custom mfgr did fail testing using dead weight and was smart enough not to post them to have people try them out. I did get it when pressing for it.
    There is NO other way to find out the suitability of a rig meant to bring big fish up from straight down.

    I think we need to press seriously on this, starting with custom blank mfgrs.
    Just because a blank lift is suitable to you does not mean it works with the desired weight lures or has enough tip action to make one work right but it is a KNOWN starting point.

    Concerning the full parabalics, if they are at the limit with the tip on the butt, the only lift is exactly that on the angler. I would think lift from a less parabolic would be some kind of a multiplier on the fish. I look forward to hearing your theorys on this.
     
  14. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    Here is the issue ... every brand name reel manufacturer is getting into the rod/vertical jigging game because its hot. Honestly I would only be buying jigging or popping rods from manufacturers that know what they are doing

    Penn and accurate IMHO should just concentrate on their reels

    I agree, I'm not considering buying them. I just found the way they spec'ed the rods unusual.

    I am pressing several manufacturers to explain what it is THEY mean by their line class ratings. I'm not sure they all know. I really like the way that several of the Japanese manufacturers spec their products--but it's still buyer beware.
     
  15. paul708

    paul708 Site Sponsor

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    I agree, I'm not considering buying them. I just found the way they spec'ed the rods unusual.

    I am pressing several manufacturers to explain what it is THEY mean by their line class ratings. I'm not sure they all know. I really like the way that several of the Japanese manufacturers spec their products--but it's still buyer beware.
    which japanese rod specs do you like, and why
     
  16. gman

    gman Senior Member

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    the dealift test does nothing but damage rods becuase more than a few members have PM'ed me that they broke or damaged a rod loading weight on them. It does show a representation of bend but thats about it. Guys are we fishing or lifting rocks. Fighting a fish with 30#'s of drag is nothing like lifting up 30#'s of dead weight.

    In my mind it is a bad test for the many reasons I previously posted. If you jig a lot you will realize that there are more important factors involved. There is more to a jigging rod than lifting weight if that is the case use a 4'8 short stroke stand up rod and you will lift whatever fish you want with it.

    Once again just my experience. I cannot left 30 pounds of weight off the ground with a Hots Wei world or a Bluerose but I can land BIG fish easy because of its balance and parabolic action

    I dont care about weider weights being lift i personally care about how easy pulling a big slob fish on the boat is in record time
     
  17. paul708

    paul708 Site Sponsor

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    as a builder i HATE the lift test.
    i do like to see it so i can see what the blanks do.
    especially if i cant get to feel one before i buy a blank.
    usually when we are trying new design blanks, we break alot of blanks.
    its just part of the testing.
     
  18. pametfisher

    pametfisher Senior Member

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    the dealift test does nothing but damage rods becuase more than a few members have PM'ed me that they broke or damaged a rod loading weight on them. It does show a representation of bend but thats about it. Guys are we fishing or lifting rocks. Fighting a fish with 30#'s of drag is nothing like lifting up 30#'s of dead weight.

    In my mind it is a bad test for the many reasons I previously posted. If you jig a lot you will realize that there are more important factors involved. There is more to a jigging rod than lifting weight if that is the case use a 4'8 short stroke stand up rod and you will lift whatever fish you want with it.

    Once again just my experience. I cannot left 30 pounds of weight off the ground with a Hots Wei world or a Bluerose but I can land BIG fish easy because of its balance and parabolic action

    I dont care about weider weights being lift i personally care about how easy pulling a big slob fish on the boat is in record time

    As usual, you make some good points. But let me ask, what if you put your belt on in the usual configuration, pretension the line by reeling it in, have the weight 15 feet below the level you're standing, and then use your legs? How does the rod know whether you're pulling 30# of drag (meaning it's slipping) against a fish or pulling 30# of weight an eighth of an inch up from the floor?

    When I've made this measurement, I stand on a second story deck with the test weight on the ground so that I get a reasonable approximation of the load.

    If you set a drag at say 25# and let 26 or 27# of weight sink slowly against the drag (since you're on a second or third story, I don't see any way that the rod can tell that it's not a fish, other than the floor's not bobbing like your boat. ;)

    I want to know two things: will the rod support the drag, what will the shape of the rod be with that load.

    As with many things simulations aren't meant to be absolutes, just to get you in the ballpark. I read somewhere about connecting the line to a car bumper and let the car drive away, I suppose that could work too but I'd need a driver.

    Your comment about landing speed is a good one, probably having something to do with the power of the rod's overall spring action, not just it's lifting capability.
     
  19. paul708

    paul708 Site Sponsor

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    Here is the issue ... every brand name reel manufacturer is getting into the rod/vertical jigging game because its hot. Honestly I would only be buying jigging or popping rods from manufacturers that know what they are doing

    Penn and accurate IMHO should just concentrate on their reels
    Glenn. i know there have been some companys getting rod info from builders, and possibly "jig/pop" guys. about new rods coming out.

    i am not sure how many "manufactures" have been doing "jig/pop" rods for a extended period.

    the travella has been around for a while.:rolleyes:
    i am still using rods that i used before the "craze" started.

    we have new rods from new companys every year.
    and possibly some of the blanks coming form the same place.

    and of course the marketing changes with every new must have "best" blank:D

    penn has been selling rods for years with their reels..if they get the right blank..watch out:eek: :D :D :D :D
     
  20. ksong

    ksong SPONSOR

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    While I started to sell rods, I found everyone's taste is different.
    Some like strong rods, some like super fancy light rods or some like any thing new models. I personally like rods with proper balance/parabolic and strength for heavy models. I know I can make some money by selling very popular jigging rods, but I decided not to carry some of them as they are too fragile for my taste as I am not a finesse fisherman and my shop reflect my philosophies. :)