torture an iraqi prisoner??? - Page 3

Black Rose · 01-22-2008, 10:25 AM

Watching an interview recently with an old, European Jewish man, he said sadly, "one thing I learned is that when someone says that they want to kill you, you listen to them." Just my 2cents.

newfimp · 04-07-2008, 11:38 AM

you stupid ignorant inbred hick rednecks are disgusting and the sorriest excuse for americans ive ever seen. theres nothing more unamerican than torture.

why are rednecks so obsessed with their "heritage" of the confederacy and civil war and all that crap. do you guys have no idea that you lost that war? you're losers. why are you so proud of being a loser?

do you realize the rest of the country/world looks at the south as a bunch of barefoot hillbilly yokels with 12 teeth and an avg IQ of 48?

gman · 04-07-2008, 11:58 AM

one hell of a first post, that should help you get responses when needed. You might as well never post here again because you have zero class. Im from the Northeast and even though I differ in opinion on some subjects here these are still my brothers. I will tell you that the same way you are calling our fishing brothers from the south rednecks and losers you are condeming them just as much as they are condeming others. Its called lead by example and state your points

Seriously if you want to make a point do so with some intelligence so that your points are taken seriously there is nothing wrong with difference of opinion but don't come here and start slinging shit only to disappear

Welcome to the site by the way

Gunsmoke · 04-07-2008, 04:54 PM

I believe newpimp would enjoy a quote that I heard from my father time and time again in deep blue water.

"I've never met a hippie while trolling"

Snagged · 04-07-2008, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfimp

you stupid ignorant inbred hick rednecks are disgusting and the sorriest excuse for americans ive ever seen. theres nothing more unamerican than torture.

why are rednecks so obsessed with their "heritage" of the confederacy and civil war and all that crap. do you guys have no idea that you lost that war? you're losers. why are you so proud of being a loser?

do you realize the rest of the country/world looks at the south as a bunch of barefoot hillbilly yokels with 12 teeth and an avg IQ of 48?

Interesting newwimp. You obviously have never bothered to study American History.
Having been on both sides of the question and answer game in a war zone I can and will say that sometimes brute force works for obtaining information.
I'm in Texas and NONE of either side of my family was in this country during the War of Northern Agression.

Now why don't you go back to knitting your pink underware and leave this board for those who love this country.

hatidua · 07-26-2008, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lite-liner

Waterboarding wouldn't be necessary if they hadn't f**ked with us...

They didn't, WE went over there. Just a thought, but can you imagine how most Americans would react to the notion of the Iraq government coming over here to "liberate" us and instill their brand of government here?

I'd place a huge order with cheaperthandirt.com and plan on planting as many roadside woes as possible. You can't hardly blame a countries citizens for being a tad pissed off at foreigners who "know better" how they should live and be governed.

The Iraqi's that get so maligned on every internet forum in this country aren't acting any different than any of us would were the situation reversed. I personally own more firearms than any human needs so I'd be renting my spares out (y'know, capitalism and all).

Snagged · 07-26-2008, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatidua

They didn't, WE went over there. Just a thought, but can you imagine how most Americans would react to the notion of the Iraq government coming over here to "liberate" us and instill their brand of government here?

I'd place a huge order with cheaperthandirt.com and plan on planting as many roadside woes as possible. You can't hardly blame a countries citizens for being a tad pissed off at foreigners who "know better" how they should live and be governed.

The Iraqi's that get so maligned on every internet forum in this country aren't acting any different than any of us would were the situation reversed. I personally own more firearms than any human needs so I'd be renting my spares out (y'know, capitalism and all).

It would be real easy to differ with you as Iraq failed to follow UN guidelines and attempted to harm American personal enforcing those same UN rulings.
The only problem I see with your threory above is that most of those currently causing trouble are not from Iraq.

hatidua · 07-26-2008, 11:50 AM

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Uncle Russ · 07-26-2008, 04:10 PM

Gentlemen:

I find that, on most very difficult policy questions, the best way to phrase the discussion is to define limits. I am vehemently against torture--I suspect Jerry would be most of the time. But, without regard to waterboarding, or the right and wrong of the Iraqi invasion, I would ask you, Hatidua, whether you can conceive of any hypothetical situation in which torture--without limits, even--would be ethically justified as national policy. The classic example, of course is the scenario in which the government has a strong indication that a nuclear weapon has been smuggled into Manhattan and is triggered to explode in 24 hours. CIA has in their custody an individual who, to a high degree of probablility, knows where the weapon is located. He is one life--an important one under American law--and worthy of the presumption of innocence (back Jerry, back Boy!). But there are over 10 million people in the New York area--lives as worthy as his. You are President Obama or Bush or McCain. Would you resort to torture in the absence of any other effective measure?

If you say, "no." Then there is no room for further discussion, with those who would say "yes." Better not to set off any further fireworks--but if you can conceive, in that difficult situation, that torture would be justifiable, then the discussion has to center on when and to what degree it is justified.

Don't get me wrong--I am not saying that the waterboarding of GITMO internees rose to that same level of urgency.

You may well be right that we should not have invaded Iraq. The majority of Americans feel that way right now--for whatever reasons. Jerry will tell you that Americans no longer have the stomach for war when necessary. I suspect you, on the other hand are saying that war with Iraq was not necessary.

I think I disagree with both those positions. It is my belief that while there are many fine and decent people who happen to be Muslim, we (the West--not just America) are in very much the same position that the Allies were in 1933 with respect to Germany and Japan--only the cultural and political divide is far wider. I respect your opinon, Hatidua, if you differ from that--and hell, I have to--you are in the majority--and that is what rules our country. But I hope you respect mine as well and it is my considered opinion that the World Trade Center did not fall because of the work of a few isolated loonies living in Afghanistan. And Jerry, I think you sell the young short--it may take a lot more than one instance of 9-11 to wake them up, but when threatened sufficiently--let's say Los Angeles is nuked--there will be an awakening as strong as when our fathers had cold water thrown on them on December 7.

I am of the opinion that is does not make any difference who is in control of Congress or the White House. We will be attacked again. It is my belief that Barack Obama will be our next president, and although I have not heard a great deal about it from his lips, I have every confidence that he and a strongly Democratic Congress will defend us as strongly as did the Bush Administration--I hope they do not make some of the same tactical mistakes!

We shall see.

In any case, when people tell me that virtually everything wrong with our country today is due to President Bush, I tell them without exception:

"Well then everything is going to be OK. Because Obama will be president and he will have a large congressional majority."

We shall see.

Russ

xs_tackle · 07-26-2008, 05:21 PM

URuss: Well said. I think I can understand the frustration of the Midland city councilman and take it very seriously without joining in his recommendation. Effective response to this set of problems will require much more dialog and careful thought.

Newfimp: Since many of us have launched an intemperate remark or two at one time or another and lived to make other, more worthy contributions, I suggest we show you a more tolerant and thoughtful vein of our shared culture by inviting you to make a fresh start on the board. We fish for many different reasons and in many different ways; but, we do like to fish. We hope you do, too, and that you will bring us interesting questions, observations, advice and stories.

I'll spare you for now, at least, my thoughts on the subjects of the roots of terror, on torture, on the dismal state of political discourse and politics in this country and on the need to distinguish enforcement of the criminal law from the waging of war.

04-07-2008, 04:54 PM	#24 (permalink)
Gunsmoke Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 536	I believe newpimp would enjoy a quote that I heard from my father time and time again in deep blue water. "I've never met a hippie while trolling" __________________ A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.

07-26-2008, 04:10 PM	#29 (permalink)
Uncle Russ Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,114	Gentlemen: I find that, on most very difficult policy questions, the best way to phrase the discussion is to define limits. I am vehemently against torture--I suspect Jerry would be most of the time. But, without regard to waterboarding, or the right and wrong of the Iraqi invasion, I would ask you, Hatidua, whether you can conceive of any hypothetical situation in which torture--without limits, even--would be ethically justified as national policy. The classic example, of course is the scenario in which the government has a strong indication that a nuclear weapon has been smuggled into Manhattan and is triggered to explode in 24 hours. CIA has in their custody an individual who, to a high degree of probablility, knows where the weapon is located. He is one life--an important one under American law--and worthy of the presumption of innocence (back Jerry, back Boy!). But there are over 10 million people in the New York area--lives as worthy as his. You are President Obama or Bush or McCain. Would you resort to torture in the absence of any other effective measure? If you say, "no." Then there is no room for further discussion, with those who would say "yes." Better not to set off any further fireworks--but if you can conceive, in that difficult situation, that torture would be justifiable, then the discussion has to center on when and to what degree it is justified. Don't get me wrong--I am not saying that the waterboarding of GITMO internees rose to that same level of urgency. You may well be right that we should not have invaded Iraq. The majority of Americans feel that way right now--for whatever reasons. Jerry will tell you that Americans no longer have the stomach for war when necessary. I suspect you, on the other hand are saying that war with Iraq was not necessary. I think I disagree with both those positions. It is my belief that while there are many fine and decent people who happen to be Muslim, we (the West--not just America) are in very much the same position that the Allies were in 1933 with respect to Germany and Japan--only the cultural and political divide is far wider. I respect your opinon, Hatidua, if you differ from that--and hell, I have to--you are in the majority--and that is what rules our country. But I hope you respect mine as well and it is my considered opinion that the World Trade Center did not fall because of the work of a few isolated loonies living in Afghanistan. And Jerry, I think you sell the young short--it may take a lot more than one instance of 9-11 to wake them up, but when threatened sufficiently--let's say Los Angeles is nuked--there will be an awakening as strong as when our fathers had cold water thrown on them on December 7. I am of the opinion that is does not make any difference who is in control of Congress or the White House. We will be attacked again. It is my belief that Barack Obama will be our next president, and although I have not heard a great deal about it from his lips, I have every confidence that he and a strongly Democratic Congress will defend us as strongly as did the Bush Administration--I hope they do not make some of the same tactical mistakes! We shall see. In any case, when people tell me that virtually everything wrong with our country today is due to President Bush, I tell them without exception: "Well then everything is going to be OK. Because Obama will be president and he will have a large congressional majority." We shall see. Russ __________________ "Tschirhart: Helluva deal. You bait the hooks--I catch the fish!--Grimm."

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01-22-2008, 10:25 AM	#21 (permalink)
Black Rose Junior member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1	Watching an interview recently with an old, European Jewish man, he said sadly, "one thing I learned is that when someone says that they want to kill you, you listen to them." Just my 2cents.

04-07-2008, 11:38 AM	#22 (permalink)
newfimp Junior member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1	you stupid ignorant inbred hick rednecks are disgusting and the sorriest excuse for americans ive ever seen. theres nothing more unamerican than torture. why are rednecks so obsessed with their "heritage" of the confederacy and civil war and all that crap. do you guys have no idea that you lost that war? you're losers. why are you so proud of being a loser? do you realize the rest of the country/world looks at the south as a bunch of barefoot hillbilly yokels with 12 teeth and an avg IQ of 48?

04-07-2008, 11:58 AM	#23 (permalink)
gman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,079	one hell of a first post, that should help you get responses when needed. You might as well never post here again because you have zero class. Im from the Northeast and even though I differ in opinion on some subjects here these are still my brothers. I will tell you that the same way you are calling our fishing brothers from the south rednecks and losers you are condeming them just as much as they are condeming others. Its called lead by example and state your points Seriously if you want to make a point do so with some intelligence so that your points are taken seriously there is nothing wrong with difference of opinion but don't come here and start slinging shit only to disappear Welcome to the site by the way

07-26-2008, 11:50 AM	#28 (permalink)
hatidua Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: various Posts: 182	We'll have to agree to disagree then.

07-26-2008, 05:21 PM	#30 (permalink)
xs_tackle Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 216	URuss: Well said. I think I can understand the frustration of the Midland city councilman and take it very seriously without joining in his recommendation. Effective response to this set of problems will require much more dialog and careful thought. Newfimp: Since many of us have launched an intemperate remark or two at one time or another and lived to make other, more worthy contributions, I suggest we show you a more tolerant and thoughtful vein of our shared culture by inviting you to make a fresh start on the board. We fish for many different reasons and in many different ways; but, we do like to fish. We hope you do, too, and that you will bring us interesting questions, observations, advice and stories. I'll spare you for now, at least, my thoughts on the subjects of the roots of terror, on torture, on the dismal state of political discourse and politics in this country and on the need to distinguish enforcement of the criminal law from the waging of war.

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