Twisting Spectra Line to Failure

[pametfisher]

Every time a fish pulls line against the drag of a spinning reel additional twists get added. These should be removed by proper maintenance of the line. The primary reason for doing this is to avoid "wind" knots (really twist knots). For a 2" diameter spool, it means about 1 twist per 6" per run.

A question has been on my mind for a while: How much twisting does it take to reduce the ABS of a given line by 1/3? For example, how much twisting can my favorite 90 lbs. ABS line absorb before it breaks at 60 lbs.

I built a 16" sample of 60# line that has an ABS of 90 lbs., loaded 60 lbs. of weight onto my test load, and began lifting. I guessed that it might take 10 twists per inch to hit my 33% target, so I added twists too quickly.

Somewhere between 25 twists (lifted 60 lbs.) and 40 twists (line broke lifting 60 lbs., is where the line will break. (Sorry for the crude data. I will refine this over time.)

Let's say for the sake of argument that the magic number was 32. Since the sample length was 16", that means the line lost 33% of its strength with 2 twists per inch. If you accept that approximation, and agree that each run against the drag adds 1 twist per 6", you would conclude that 12 runs against the drag would get you to 2 twists per inch.

So now, say you're fighting a fish for an hour, how much twisting would that add? This report is very preliminary, but it surprised me a lot. So as I develop additional data I will post it in this thread.

12/13/10 Data: 60# JB Hollow-weave, 90 lbs. ABS; 4 Samples, each length 24", 4" (2+2) end-loop splices; 1/2" end loop.

45 lb. Load (50% ABS)
Sample 1 failed between 70-75 twists (3 twists per inch)
Sample 2 failed between 70-75 twists

60 lb. Load (66% ABS)
Sample 3 failed between 45-50 twists (2 per inch)
Sample 4 failed between 55-60 twists (2.5 per inch)

So there is the data on JB 60# hollow, 3 twists per inch and the line strength is reduced by 50%. I would expect variation among types of Spectra line, but this will get you in the ballpark. (I will try some Daiwa Boat Braid tomorrow.)

PF

[DenisB]

Since the sample length was 16", that means the line lost 33% of its strength with 2 twists per inch. If you accept that approximation, and agree that each run against the drag adds 1 twist per 6", you would conclude that 12 runs against the drag would get you to 2 twists per inch.

This report is very preliminary, but it surprised me a lot.
PF

Low twists per inch for the reduction in BS you saw in the preliminary tests .............surprises me too.

The twist rate per run length in practice on the water is a moving feast dependant on the length of line out , length of run , number of runs , and variable line length out at each run.

The really worrying bit from your tests is that we know that twist in braid transmits down towards the end of the line during retrieve , so the worst case situation is at the end of the fight with short line to the fish under the boat & high angler effort input .

Does make me more comfortable with my use of heavier braid as a casting /abrasion leader between the mainline & the mono leader, where the twist in the braid is inherently going to be highest at the 'end-game'.

It sure does emphasise the desirability of line twist maintenance on the trip home and between long fights when the opportunity arises..........that some of us evolved without empirical data on strength loss..........& primarily for other reasons.
Fortunately, minimising twist in line maintence is a simple technique.........not perfect, but simple to accomplish with reasonably low levels of residual twist.

Look forward to seeing further tests as you get the opportunity.

[Jrzrider83]

i believe the reduction in break strength may be a mute point if it can be verified that the addition of a swivel to your terminal tackle alleviates the built up line twists.

if you had the time, i would suggest that after you quantify the number of turns to reduce the ABS to 66% to add a ball bearing swivel to your test and see how many twists can be reduced. i.e. add the number of twists to reduce ABS to 66% and try and lift the weight. then you can count the number of times the swivel turns and if if does turn i would assume the ABS would be restored.

i add a ball bearing swivel to both my jigs and topwater lures to prevent the accumulation of line twist so this would be a nice way to confirm my swivel is actually doing anything.

hope you can fit this into your testing schedule

[oldtrackster]

i believe the reduction in break strength may be a mute point if it can be verified that the addition of a swivel to your terminal tackle alleviates the built up line twists.

if you had the time, i would suggest that after you quantify the number of turns to reduce the ABS to 66% to add a ball bearing swivel to your test and see how many twists can be reduced. i.e. add the number of twists to reduce ABS to 66% and try and lift the weight. then you can count the number of times the swivel turns and if if does turn i would assume the ABS would be restored.

i add a ball bearing swivel to both my jigs and topwater lures to prevent the accumulation of line twist so this would be a nice way to confirm my swivel is actually doing anything.

hope you can fit this into your testing schedule

X2

[DenisB]

In practice you find that there is lot of resistance to even a high quality small ball bearing swivel turning under the influence of line twist at typical drag pressures.

In my experience with my Alvey there were a lot more than 2 twists per inch stacked up behind the swivel with repeated use.

IMHO line diameter & physical swivel size ( specifically the bearing surface diameter & area ) are the key parameters in this & that confirmation & refinement of Roger's preliminary test results are necessary before we jump to assuptions about the validity, practicality, & worth of mitigation measures.

What I can say is that with 20# braid I found no worth in ball bearing swivels & use crane swivels merely for convenience of leader rig attachment ( short leader ) & use line maintenance to manage twist accumulation.
No type of swivel I tried rotated under high twist level in the line unless the tension was reduced to ridiculously low levels in the line.
Yes, the ball bearing swivels rotated at higher pressure than the crane swivels, but not all that much ...............and certainly no where near fighting pressures in pump & wind.
And
I'm not going to give a fish slack line mid-fight, deliberately ............for any reason

[pametfisher]

In practice you find that there is lot of resistance to even a high quality small ball bearing swivel turning under the influence of line twist at typical drag pressures.

In my experience with my Alvey there were a lot more than 2 twists per inch stacked up behind the swivel with repeated use.

IMHO line diameter & physical swivel size ( specifically the bearing surface diameter & area ) are the key parameters in this & that confirmation & refinement of Roger's preliminary test results are necessary before we jump to assuptions about the validity, practicality, & worth of mitigation measures.

What I can say is that with 20# braid I found no worth in ball bearing swivels & use crane swivels merely for convenience of leader rig attachment ( short leader ) & use line maintenance to manage twist accumulation.
No type of swivel I tried rotated under high twist level in the line unless the tension was reduced to ridiculously low levels in the line.
Yes, the ball bearing swivels rotated at higher pressure than the crane swivels, but not all that much ...............and certainly no where near fighting pressures in pump & wind.
And
I'm not going to give a fish slack line mid-fight, deliberately ............for any reason

Although I haven't made any measurements, this is what I was thinking also about ball bearing swivels. Many people who have fished with me and who catch a lot of large pelagics, have line on their spinning reels that is very twisted, more than 2 per inch.

From experience, many/most BFT seem to have a half-wrap of the leader, from the mouth, under the belly and past the tail. In this case, the swivel is pretty much out of the picture.

I will make a couple more samples today and try to refine the numbers somewhat. This will be a work in process.

[johndtuttle]

bearing swivels are great for reducing twist while fishing lures, many of which add quite a bit. During the fight, not so much, it's a real problem that requires continual maintenance.

[copperhead]

Many people who have fished with me and who catch a lot of large pelagics, have line on their spinning reels that is very twisted, more than 2 per inch..

Have you witnessed an unordinate number of break-offs fishing with these people?
What, in your opinion, is the reason for the failure of twisted braid?
Last question, when trailing braid behind the boat to untwist 1) should the spliced end loop be removed, ie: does the loop act with sufficient ruddering ( if that is a word) effect to add twist?

[DenisB]

My alvey reel use with braid is probably the worst situation you can be in as EVERY cast adds twist .
I've always managed the twist during sessions & periodically taken it out completely with my 'patented' portable drill in reverse caper.
failures have not been significant & nothing I could put down to just line failure.
Its a a long rod ( 12' ) use , so the leverage disadvantage is high & line tension not all that great relative to UTS. Bustoffs are usually from fish simply getting you around a rock.
The situation might have been very different with higher line tension levels.
I look forward to Roger's further work with interest.

When trailing line behind the boat the loop is not a significant disadvantage.
Most of the twist removal comes from squeezing the line between thumb & finger during retrieve ............forcing the twist towards the end.
Its a bit clumsy with a spinner , but its what does the job.

That's how I manage twist mid-session with my Alveys.
............forcing the twist towards the lure periodically & allowing the lure to spin hanging off the tip & relieve the twist periodically between casts .
He He..........lure spin under its own weight is a pretty good indicator of swivel efficiency BTW.

failure cause:
twisting of braid weaving causes an uneven differential radial angle in the fibres of the braid............those fibres that are counter rotated in the weave to the twist direction effectively become slack & the fibres that are co-rotated in the twist direction carry all the load . Thus reducing the number of load bearing fibres in the braid. With a low twist ratio the differential lies within the stretch of the fibre & the slacker fibres can contribute to some load carrying, once the twist ratio gets high enough to exceed the stretch of the load bearing fibres the slack fibres can contribute nothing towards load bearing.
when the load carrying fibres fail the slack fibres are subjected to a shock load & its all over in a micro second.

Hope that helps explain.

[BretABaker]

fun blackfish reel those alveys