Max Drag Specs - Divide by 3

[pametfisher]

Earlier in the year, after measuring all my spinning reels for maximum drag, I concluded that the Max Drag spec for spinning reels was an EMPTY SPOOL number. (See: Spinning Reel Maximum Drag Specifications about the middle of the page.)

Since I hadn't measured a large number of conventional reels, I was unwilling to say that would be the case for them too but I suspected it. This weekend, I came across some photos on the Everol web site that clearly show that drags are almost always specified at empty spool when the "effective diameter" of the spool is smallest (nothing wrong with that).

Look at the attached photo of the Everol 4/0. First, you can see that the full spool (top arc of numbers) shows a maximum drag of 10 lbs. Then, looking at the bottom arc, you can see that 30 lbs. is the maximum drag with the lever forward. Lastly, notice that below the name 4/0 on the reel is the number 30 lbs.

This is not just an Everol reel phenomenon but they are one of the few companies to be clear and honest about the design and performance of their product. I applaud them.

This doesn't mean that you can't over tighten the drag adjusting screw to obtain more than 10 lbs. at full spool, but there are a couple important implications:

1. If you try for more than 10 lbs. at full spool, you will likely be asking the reel for 3X more heat dissipation than it was designed to achieve if you hook a large fish.

2. You will have fully compressed the drag spring and will be overloading the screw threads of the tightening mechanism. This will also lead to poor free spool performance.

So here's a simple rule of thumb since the diameter of most spools varies by 2.5:1 or 3.0:1 from full spool to empty spool: when you see a Max Drag specification, divide it by 2.5 or 3 to know the maximum drag that you should expect at full spool.

So for example, this means that a Stella FA or SW, (on which I've measured the diameters) with a Max Drag spec of 55 lbs., should be expected to produce about 20 lbs. when the spool is full. And in the case of an Everol 4/0 (thanks Everol for being clear) with a 30 lb. Max Drag spec, the full spool number is 10 lbs. and a Saragosa 18K with a 44 lb. spec. was designed for 16 lbs. at full spool. Can you get more drag than these numbers, yes, but you're overloading the mechanics, and may overload the heat dissipation design when you do.

[John_Madison CT]

Roger: Great post. I'm not sure that's completely true with all Conv. reels. Many claim much lower "max drag" #'s.

For example, a Shimano Tiagra 16 claims 23lbs at Strike and 30lb at Full, while maintaining free spool. I found this to be nearly exactly the case with my Tiagra 16 with a full spool of braid. I'm sure at close to an empty spool, the drag would be much higher.

All my Penn Internationals show similar #'s.

Many of the spinning reel claims are kind of crazy. Shimano doesn't claim 55lbs of drag for their 80 class reel, while they say a Stella can do it. Kind of weird really.

[pametfisher]

Originally Posted by John_Madison CT

Roger: Great post. I'm not sure that's completely true with all Conv. reels. Many claim much lower "max drag" #'s.

For example, a Shimano Tiagra 16 claims 23lbs at Strike and 30lb at Full, while maintaining free spool. I found this to be nearly exactly the case with my Tiagra 16 with a full spool of braid. I'm sure at close to an empty spool, the drag would be much higher.

All my Penn Internationals show similar #'s.

Many of the spinning reel claims are kind of crazy. Shimano doesn't claim 55lbs of drag for their 80 class reel, while they say a Stella can do it. Kind of weird really.

Hi John: I expected this to be a controversial thread. Looking at the design of the Tiagra and comparing it to the drag mechanism of the Everol and other reels, I accept that you achieve the numbers you measured but I also believe that Shimano means at empty spool on the Tiagra too.

When drag is specified there are several considerations: how much friction can the reel create (the lbs. we measure), how much torque can the bearings and gears withstand, and how much heat can the reel dissipate and for how long?

Again, I applaud Everol for the clarity.

[saqa]

A number of years ago I had access to a 1000m long driveway. A similar topic came up amongst some fellow fishers and we decided to put it to the test. Using a very good set of scales we would test to see what would happen while completely spooling the line off the reel. One bloke would hang on to the outfit, two blokes would jump in the car and drive away 60kph. One of the blokes in the car hangs onto the scales holding it outa the window. We tested a number of reels like this and most did fine for the first few meters but the drag just dropped away to nothing very quickly. One reel had the drag knob cooked. Most of the other spools became very sticky or seized up after cooling down. None of the ones which did this were running carbontex washers. A tiagra 50 tested remained very consistent and actually increased as line was lost but not by much. A 4500 baitrunner running aftermarket washers and 14kg of drag also remained very consistent over 250m dropping only 3kg. All the reels got very hot

We started just under the max specified drags except for the baitrunner which managed crank up till 14kg while staying smooth

The conlusion we drew from these tests were that although physics state the the drag should increase, the head buildup works inversely. The carbontex washer upgrade on reels that didnt already have them keeps things more consistent

[pametfisher]

Originally Posted by saqa

A number of years ago I had access to a 1000m long driveway. A similar topic came up amongst some fellow fishers and we decided to put it to the test. Using a very good set of scales we would test to see what would happen while completely spooling the line off the reel. One bloke would hang on to the outfit, two blokes would jump in the car and drive away 60kph. One of the blokes in the car hangs onto the scales holding it outa the window. We tested a number of reels like this and most did fine for the first few meters but the drag just dropped away to nothing very quickly. One reel had the drag knob cooked. Most of the other spools became very sticky or seized up after cooling down. None of the ones which did this were running carbontex washers. A tiagra 50 tested remained very consistent and actually increased as line was lost but not by much. A 4500 baitrunner running aftermarket washers and 14kg of drag also remained very consistent over 250m dropping only 3kg. All the reels got very hot

We started just under the max specified drags except for the baitrunner which managed crank up till 14kg while staying smooth

The conlusion we drew from these tests were that although physics state the the drag should increase, the head buildup works inversely. The carbontex washer upgrade on reels that didnt already have them keeps things more consistent

Very interesting tests! You made one of my points, exactly, that these reels are not designed to dissipate the heat that the Max Drag spec suggests. You'd be surprised by the internal temperatures if you measured them.

Your test answered the question: What happens to drag levels when a reel gets overheated? You found the answer, which is the same as when you ride a car's brakes going downhill. The brakes fail and a reel's drag fails, and for the same reason. They can't shed heat fast enough.

By the way, if you take a cool reel and test the drag at empty spool, you get the type of numbers that Everol suggests by its innovative specs.

[saqa]

The thing is that even with starting with a third of the drag, the heat will still build up. A number of reels that I have played with have held up max drag for bit just fine, its the crappy washers in most that let them down. A recent reel update from a big brand name has seen drag failures like in my torture tests while running quite low drags on tuna. The previous gen of the same reel model didnt have this issue. Its a mid priced reel that goes from 1500-8000 sizes. The only thing different inside the spool between the generations are the drag washers. Upgrade to better washers and the capability to hold that becomes much better. The trick is to back the drag off on capable reels like the tiagaras as the load increases. Thats the whole point of lever drags and my respect goes to reels like the tiagras and the new mid priced tyrnos that can flog the stated max drags and come back for more. I am hoping the JM PE3 is built along these lines one of them is my next reel purchase

[John_Madison CT]

Pametfisher: I've spoken to Shimano about this. There's a guy on Noreast.com who works for Shimano and runs a small forum there.

I was told that the spec of his reels is with a full spool. Of course, maybe I misunderstood.

I'd send him a note for confirmation. Also, to discuss this with Penn, you can contact Tom Blecker. Tom is their Service Manager. Very nice guy. His email is: tmblecker@purefishing.com

I'm sure both can clarify for us. Granted, they certainly don't represent all reel manufacturers.

[Brokejeep]

Thanks for explaining this up since I really didn't understand it.

[MrBill]

Heat is the killer of drags and the internal parts of reels. I think you are better off starting off with a heavier drag (full spool) and try to stop the fish from making a long run. If you can't stop him and 1/3 of the line is gone, then you better lower the drag lever fast or the line is going to pop.

I've been on boats where an 80W has been stripped down to almost seeing the brass on the bottom of the spool on a explosive run by a marlin. I don't know if it is smart or not, but I've seen different methods of cooling off the reel.

Some will dip a 5 gallon bucket into the ocean and pour it over the reel. Some will get the fresh water wash down hose and spray it on the reel for about three minutes. I've even seen guys take the rod and reel from the angler in the chair and dunk it in the ocean with the marlin still attached. The reel will sizzle and create air bubbles in the water. I thought that was stupid, but it worked. It wasn't my reel so I really did care. I enjoy the drama of guys in a panic situation. Sometimes its me the panic mode.

[pametfisher]

Originally Posted by MrBill

Heat is the killer of drags and the internal parts of reels. I think you are better off starting off with a heavier drag (full spool) and try to stop the fish from making a long run. If you can't stop him and 1/3 of the line is gone, then you better lower the drag lever fast or the line is going to pop. ...

It's interesting, when you know exactly what you've got: drag, heat, line strength etc., you can play things a number of ways.

I took a different approach on my 22'-er. I worked out what the maximum drag at the bottom of the spool would be, built a line system that was stronger than the reel's maximum drag, and made an estimate of Boat Min/Max Drag. If I fish from the front of the boat, I get Boat Min Drag, and if I keep the boat turned sideways I get Boat Max Drag. Perhaps one day I'll be spotted at the front of the boat, with an empty/spooled Stella 20000FA, rod pointed straight ahead, being towed by a 90" Bluefin ...