360Tuna

Go Back   360Tuna > SALTWATER FISHING OFFSHORE > Tackle and Rigging
Old 07-29-2009, 08:30 PM   #1 (permalink)
Site Sponsor
 
pametfisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: www.StreamlineLeaders.com
Posts: 984
pametfisher is on a distinguished road
Hollow Spectra V: Mainline Loops (End Loops, Biminis, Surgeon's)

If you are going to use a Wind-On leader with your Spinning reel, one of the choices you face is how to make the loop on your mainline for the loop-to-loop connection between it and the Wind-On leader. (Loop-to-Loop photo below.) The loop-to-loop connection lets you change leaders reliably and quickly, in 6' seas, a 20 knot wind, when the temperature is 50 degrees, at night. And if you have pre-tied swivels/split rings to your spare leaders, there are no knots to be tied when the bite is on.

The mainline loop is a critical part of a loop to loop connection system. Done correctly, the mainline loop is a line-doubler. A well chosen line-doubler reduces the tension of the in the loop by half, with no loss of strength (e.g. if the mainline tension is 40 lbs., the tension in the line inside the loop, is only 20 lbs--almost magic).

Halving the tension in the loops is key to the loop-to-loop connection because the loop-to-loop knot itself is a 60-65% knot. Simple math (and real world testing and experience) says that a 60% efficient knot, running at half of the tension of the mainline, is a 120% connection. Of course 120% is meaningless but it does guarantee you a 100% strong connection--no loss of line strength in the connection. (Note: A single loop-to-loop connection is all that is needed.)

For spinning reels, the ideal mainline loop is:
--thin and without knots so that it does not catch loops of line on the spool, leading to wind-knots;
--sized small so that it can't loop around a guide during casting;
--and does not reduce the strength of the line.

Some examples of mainline loops, photos below:

1. Spliced End-Loop in hollow-weave Spectra. This is a thin, reliable way to form a line-doubler loop. There are no points of stress concentration and it is easy to make perfectly. The spliced End-Loop can be made in any loop size from fractions of an inch to feet. The catch is that you need hollow-weave Spectra.

If you prefer solid-weave Spectra as your mainline, a good alternative is to splice 5 to 10 yards of hollow-weave Spectra on top of the solid-weave and then make a spliced End-Loop. Glueless Solid to Hollow Spectra Splice Full Strength

2. Bimini Twist. Thin and nearly 100% strong, the key to successfully using a Bimini Twist in a loop-to-loop connection is to use enough twists so that each side of the loop can carry 50% of the load. In my testing, that rarely happens below 30 initial twists--I say initial twists because about 60% of the twists you start with are used to create the top wraps, leaving only 40% of the initial twists to hold the connection. In my experience and testing 50 initial-twists is a good number. (Note, the loop-to-loop is a different application than tying a Bimini Twist to a Slim Beauty.) The final lock knot on the tag end of a Bimini should be superglued or it will loosen after a couple hours of casting.

The biggest drawback to the Bimini Twist is that it is difficult to control loop size, and large loops can catch on the guides during casting. More twists means a bigger loop, less twists means a risk of the knot slipping.

3. Surgeon's Loop. This is a quick, reliable, east-to-tie knot. And it is relatively easy to control loop size. The main drawbacks in a spinning reel application are: a) there is stress concentration where the mainline makes its first turn inside the knot, which reduces the strength of the mainline by about 30%, b) it is a knot that can hit the guides, and hang on them, and c) after an hour of casting, when the line on your spool is no longer packed tightly, it can pull wind-knot loops off the spool. The 30% strength loss is not usually a problem in 80# Spectra on a spinning reel, unless the particular line doesn't overtest (e.g. some of the PE lines).

All of the above choices will work, with some having advantages over the others. You can probably tell, I'm a big fan of the spliced End-Loop
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC01927.JPG (304.2 KB, 505 views)
File Type: jpg DSC01826.JPG (243.8 KB, 494 views)
pametfisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 05:58 AM   #2 (permalink)
Site Sponsor
 
pametfisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: www.StreamlineLeaders.com
Posts: 984
pametfisher is on a distinguished road
Good Question

Quote:
Are there problems with the solid mainline braid cutting the hollow spectra when using a loop to loop with bimini in mainline??? That is why I have always shied away from using the bimini as the mainline loop and instead went with spliced end loops, as you know. I am more confident with hollow to hollow loops than solid to hollow loops, if you get my drift.

The simple answer is: there are no problems with solid Spectra cutting hollow Spectra. Here's why--

The materials of hollow-weave Spectra and solid-weave are the same, Gel Spun Polyethylene. The difference is purely how the bobbins move on the weaving machine when the line is made. In the case of solid-weave, the threads are brought across the pattern from time to time, in hollow-weave the bobbins move around the outside and never cross the center.

When put under tension, for all practical purposes, hollow and solid of the same strength are nearly indistinguishable. When I splice an end loop on a piece of Spectra and hang it on a hook, then go back to it in a few days, the tension of hanging makes it hard to find the center at times--that's how easily the "hollow center" disappears. When you're jigging, casting, retrieving or trolling hollow-weave Spectra, the center is fully closed.

Forgetting solid and hollow for a moment, if you take 50 lb. actual breaking strength (ABS) Spectra, and loop it to 80 lb. ABS Spectra and then load it with 50 lbs. or so, the 50 lb. loop will appear to "cut" through the 80 lb. loop. (I've tested this a few times.) But what is actually happening, according to the Materials Science guys I've spoken to, is that the 80 lb. line is being "bent" around the much thinner 50 lb. line and is fracturing. But this type of breaking is merely an example of a 50 lb. line, connected to an 80 lb. line, breaking at 50 lbs.--just what you would expect.

The biggest problem that I've seen and heard about with Bimini's in casting loop-to-loop connections, is the Bimini loop (which can be a few inches in diameter) opening and wrapping around the stripper guide--followed by an abrupt break-off or lure flying back your way. It is hard, if not impossible, to make a 50-turn Bimini in Spectra that is as small as an inch in diameter. That's one of the reasons I like hollow-weave for loops.
pametfisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 10:54 AM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Stryper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 324
Stryper is on a distinguished road
Just put some hollow on your last 20-30 yards of line and splice in your topshot. And eliminate all the Bimini/loop2loop BS. Then you never have to worry if any of the loop legs are carrying more load than the other 3 legs.
Stryper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 12:11 PM   #4 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
SteelingHeads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wakefield, NH
Posts: 524
SteelingHeads is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryper
Just put some hollow on your last 20-30 yards of line and splice in your topshot. And eliminate all the Bimini/loop2loop BS. Then you never have to worry if any of the loop legs are carrying more load than the other 3 legs.

If I understand your method correctly though, no loop to loop means either splicing or knots on the water when changing out leaders. Am I misunderstanding you?
SteelingHeads is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 04:55 PM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Stryper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 324
Stryper is on a distinguished road
If I understand your method correctly though, no loop to loop means either splicing

Yes, unbroken TRUE 100% connection Blackwater International - The World's Finest Fishing Line - Tech Tips - Hollow Braid Splice Connection


or knots on the water when changing out leaders.

I am not sure what you mean...by knots on the water
Stryper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 05:02 PM   #6 (permalink)
Site Sponsor
 
pametfisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: www.StreamlineLeaders.com
Posts: 984
pametfisher is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryper
If I understand your method correctly though, no loop to loop means either splicing

Yes, unbroken TRUE 100% connection Blackwater International - The World's Finest Fishing Line - Tech Tips - Hollow Braid Splice Connection


or knots on the water when changing out leaders.

I am not sure what you mean...by knots on the water

Blackwater advocates connecting windons by loop-to-loop.

Since there is no strength loss in a loop-to-loop (because of the line-doubler effect in a good end loop), it's better than directly splicing mono/fluoro to your mainline since there is a huge advantage to being able to swap leaders on the go.

My post is intended to give some choices and trade-offs for the mainline loop.
pametfisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 05:13 PM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
gman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: www.Jigstrong.com
Posts: 2,742
gman is on a distinguished road
I would concur that a loop to loop connection is much better than any other connection while casting especially for tuna where your leader may get banged up from bass or blues. This strongly contradicts everything I once said but I am now a believer in these specific wind ons.

We were in a hot tuna bite, I had just released another large fish but my 130# Streamline Leader paid the price after 3 fish. I was able to cut it off and re loop within a minute I was casting again. No downtime and my next hookup was on this cast. Perfection

I will be splicing onto my mainline a loop in the near future
gman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 07:24 PM   #8 (permalink)
Site Sponsor
 
Basil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Harrington Park, NJ
Posts: 245
Basil is on a distinguished road
I was able to cut it off and re loop within a minute


I've been advocating this for years, finally someone gets it. L2L is better than any knot, just look at failure rates posted here and many other boards. Do the work, maintain your connection, land the fish.

Thanks,

Basil Pappas
BHP Tackle
73 Norma Road
Harrington Park, NJ 07640

Shop: 201-767-9028
Toll Free: 877-861-2513
BHP Tackle - Wind-On Leaders - Topshots - Fluorocarbon Wind-On Leaders - Hollow Spectra
Basil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 07:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
gman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: www.Jigstrong.com
Posts: 2,742
gman is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil
I was able to cut it off and re loop within a minute


I've been advocating this for years, finally someone gets it. L2L is better than any knot, just look at failure rates posted here and many other boards. Do the work, maintain your connection, land the fish.

Thanks,

Basil Pappas
BHP Tackle
73 Norma Road
Harrington Park, NJ 07640

Shop: 201-767-9028
Toll Free: 877-861-2513
BHP Tackle - Wind-On Leaders - Topshots - Fluorocarbon Wind-On Leaders - Hollow Spectra


Basil, you are the best and the godfather of this. Your systems have been the absolute standard in the trolling, chunking and overall fishing game for so long. The only place windon leaders havent taking off is with spinning gear primarily because of the length of mono insert and serve as it affects the cast.

With an altered system guys like me who swore I would never use one for casting have now seen the benefits and I will honestly never go back to a Page Ranking Knot or any knot for that matter

Hope all is well Basil ... Glenn
gman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 08:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
SteelingHeads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wakefield, NH
Posts: 524
SteelingHeads is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryper
If I understand your method correctly though, no loop to loop means either splicing

Yes, unbroken TRUE 100% connection Blackwater International - The World's Finest Fishing Line - Tech Tips - Hollow Braid Splice Connection


or knots on the water when changing out leaders.

I am not sure what you mean...by knots on the water

Sorry if my post was confusing Stryper. All i was trying to say is that the Loop to loop is quick and easy when you are out on the water. If you are not using loop to loop you are either trying to splice out on the water when you need to replace a leader, or you are back to weak 40 to 50% strength knots. The loop to loop you can change out your leader much quicker than you can tie or splice, and you have done the splicing in the comfort and warmth of the tying bench vs. pitching and rolling in rain and cold weather.
SteelingHeads is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:36 AM.


Copyright © 2006 360Tuna.com - The user submitted content are property of their posters.
Terms of Use | Privacy Policy
Hosting By Ewdison Then - Forum Powered by vBulletin ©2006 Jelsoft Ltd.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.1.0