For much of the winter, I've been experimenting with splices, knots and wind-on leaders. After a lot of trial and error, I settled on a knotless system (except from leader to tackle) that I have tested on land and on four fishing trips. During the most recent trip I was able to put the system to a serious test, landing a 130ish lb. (+/-) fish with high pressure, in under 10 minutes.
The attached photo tells the story. I have implemented this system in JB Hollow line. I pre-make two types of leaders and a pre-leader. The leaders are either 80# or 125#. The on-water change out time for the leaders is about a minute. For the terminal tackle knot (which I also pre-tie on land) I have switched from Uni to a long time favorite of mine, the twice through Jansik/Ryo-shi for its simplicity and stability. Sometimes I use rings and sometimes I use swivels, but each of them connects to my poppers/jigs with a split ring. I leave the dock with 10 of each type of leader (and a few pre-leaders) in my bag and change them as needed.
Because my leaders have only a 12 inch splice section, they cast as well as P.R. or Mid knots. Line twisting (a feared issue with hollow Spectra) has not been a problem at all.
Lastly, I want to give credit where credit is due. Many of you at 360tuna have provided insights that have been key for me, especially Basil Pappas of BHP Tackle who has provided line, tools, technical support and encouragement. Thank you all.
Last edited by pametfisher : 06-16-2009 at 12:24 PM.
I really have enjoyed your pursuit of the perfect tackle system. I have adapted many of your insights to the way I rig my tackle. Could you be more specific on the way you are attaching your "pre-leader" to the spool? The one thing that has bothered me personally about using a "strong knot" to connect to the spool is that if I were ever to be spooled by a demon fish is see disastrous consequences: 1. having rod and reel yanked out of my hands with 80+lbs (in your case)_, 2. If I were able to hold on the reel might get ripped off the rod and through the guides, or at a minimum the bail arm would break off and spool would pop off. The thoughts of these scenarios has made me consider attaching my main line to my spool with a piece of 40-60lb mono so I know it will break. This situation is a little more realistic for me with my 8000fa Stella than your 20000 but I think it is worth being prepared for. What are your thoughts on this scenario?
I really have enjoyed your pursuit of the perfect tackle system. I have adapted many of your insights to the way I rig my tackle. Could you be more specific on the way you are attaching your "pre-leader" to the spool? The one thing that has bothered me personally about using a "strong knot" to connect to the spool is that if I were ever to be spooled by a demon fish is see disastrous consequences: 1. having rod and reel yanked out of my hands with 80+lbs (in your case)_, 2. If I were able to hold on the reel might get ripped off the rod and through the guides, or at a minimum the bail arm would break off and spool would pop off. The thoughts of these scenarios has made me consider attaching my main line to my spool with a piece of 40-60lb mono so I know it will break. This situation is a little more realistic for me with my 8000fa Stella than your 20000 but I think it is worth being prepared for. What are your thoughts on this scenario?
What to do at the bottom of the spool is a good question. On a Stella 20K, sorry for the mathmatics, if you set your drag with a full spool to 20 lbs., and you were to get spooled without reducing your drag, the bottom of spool drag would be about 50lbs. The force on the bail arm woud be 75lbs. because the line comes around it at a right angle.
Even if you pointed the rod straight out, you'd have to hold back the 50lbs. Not a small force.
However, I'm not a big fan of a weak connection to the spool. First assuming 20 lbs. drag, the full top of spool torque gets transmitted to the bottom of the spool. Friction along the sides of the spool, from the line, can mitigate the force at the bottom, but assuming friction is low between the line and spool, your connection knot should be able to hold at least 50 lbs., maybe even 75 lbs.
So, I would say carry a knife (there are a lot of good reasons to have a knife on your person while fishing/boating) and/or be prepared to snap the line by grabbing the reel seat with two hands and yanking--the breaking force of the line will drop by half if you snap it aggressively.
One last thought, if you get all your knots and connections correct, and you get near the bottom with 50 lbs. or more of drag, there are not many fish that can swim far at that level. Hang on!
What are your thoughts on a similar system using Solid Spectra as mainline, and a bimini twist, then loop to loop with a wind on leader tied in the fashion yours have been tied? Are you gaining anything doing it that way or are you still better off using a Page Ranking or Slim Beauty knot? How exactly are you doing your wind-on leaders with only a 12 inch splice? The Wind-ons I tie up for my jigging setups I tie with about a 3 foot splice.
What are your thoughts on a similar system using Solid Spectra as mainline, and a bimini twist, then loop to loop with a wind on leader tied in the fashion yours have been tied? Are you gaining anything doing it that way or are you still better off using a Page Ranking or Slim Beauty knot? How exactly are you doing your wind-on leaders with only a 12 inch splice? The Wind-ons I tie up for my jigging setups I tie with about a 3 foot splice.
SH, You've asked some good questions.
The solid line and Bimini system and wind on would work fine. The advantage to all hollow is that you can replace the top 100 yards of line periodically using a line to line splice. Also an end-loop in hollow is better in many ways than a Bimini in solid. The end-loop is easier to size and easier to make perfect. You can splice some hollow line on top of the solid line as follows: Glueless Solid to Hollow Spectra Splice Full Strength, then splice an end loop. I have half a dozen reels that still have solid line, I have spliced on the hollow.
The main thing you gain with pre-made, pre-tied leaders is the ability to make all connections other than loop to loop ahead of time. Then you can pre-test the knots. It is fast and simple to change a damaged leader or to go up/down in leader strength. And you never have to wonder about the strength of your knots/connections because they are pre-tested.
The P.R. and Slim Beauty are excellent knots but they take time to tie, and patience, something I lack when out fishing. So I would say what you gain is confidence and flexibility. The other thing is the wind-on moves very smoothly through the guides, I think even better than the Mid or P.R. The Slim Beauty has a Stop Knot which I don't like going in and out through the guides.
The serve I use is able to carry the full load and does not move. Therefore, I can make the splice any length from about 2" on up--a 12" splice gives me some redundancy to the serve. A short splice makes for excellent casting.
BHP Tackle makes a wind-on with a very strong Serve. One thing you could consider, is buying that product and cutting a portion of the mono/fluoro out of the splice for better casting. I have done that and it works but you should check with Basil.
Thanks for the response! I may try using the solid to hollow splice and then splicing a loop into hollow for a loop to loop connection. I have to admit, I am still hesitant to use all hollow spectra on a spinning reel because of its tendency to flatten out. Any chance we could get you to show us a pic of your serve, or have you posted it before? I do think I remember a discussion on wind-on leaders where you were testing the strength of them and had shown the difference in how they were constructed.
is that a flat pressed ring? ive heard bad experiences with those, round are better and less prone to line breaking because the edges on the flat ring cut the line during high pressure
What to do at the bottom of the spool is a good question. On a Stella 20K, sorry for the mathmatics, if you set your drag with a full spool to 20 lbs., and you were to get spooled without reducing your drag, the bottom of spool drag would be about 50lbs. The force on the bail arm woud be 75lbs. because the line comes around it at a right angle.
Even if you pointed the rod straight out, you'd have to hold back the 50lbs. Not a small force.
However, I'm not a big fan of a weak connection to the spool. First assuming 20 lbs. drag, the full top of spool torque gets transmitted to the bottom of the spool. Friction along the sides of the spool, from the line, can mitigate the force at the bottom, but assuming friction is low between the line and spool, your connection knot should be able to hold at least 50 lbs., maybe even 75 lbs.
So, I would say carry a knife (there are a lot of good reasons to have a knife on your person while fishing/boating) and/or be prepared to snap the line by grabbing the reel seat with two hands and yanking--the breaking force of the line will drop by half if you snap it aggressively.
One last thought, if you get all your knots and connections correct, and you get near the bottom with 50 lbs. or more of drag, there are not many fish that can swim far at that level. Hang on!
This might be at the point of beating the proverbial dead horse, but isn't friction on the spool the only interface through which the tension of the line is transmitted to the spool? I believe the knot is supporting little, if any, tension and its strength is only pertinent to straight line pull of the line if no line is left (spooled situation from demon fish). If I remember correctly you are a practitioner of not taping your braid to the spool and rely only on line tension to secure the line to the spool. if that is correct you are not merely relying on the knot in the line to attach it to the spool but the many wraps of line that contact the inside diameter of the spool. Certainly this is a case of personal preference; so I will leave it at that. but I think for me I’d at least like to know that I have a 30-40lb fuse/break away (short length of 30-40lb mono) at the end of my line to prevent the disasters I previously mentioned. Especially for the scenario where I am not the one using the reel at the time.
It seems I find it much easier to get thoroughly involved with my work when I apply it to things that make me happy i.e. fishing and tackle.
Pamet: I spend the last couple of hours sitting in front of the TV practicing your solid braid to hollow braid connection. It takes a bit of practice, but I think I did a pretty darn good job.
I'll have to switch some of my reels over to this as they have solid braid.
The one remaining question is the amount of line inserted in the HC. I make my own topshots/windons and seem to follow a splice very similar to Basil, but have some apprehension over only inserting a few inches. I always thought it was the chinese handcuff that really held the mono into the HC and the serve only "served" to keep the braid tight.
BTW, how is this better than just tying a 20 turn bimini in the solid braid and then connecting it to a Basil type windon??
Last edited by John_Madison CT : 06-18-2009 at 10:01 PM.
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